Quick question for the egggggsperts...

Alright guys, I don't feel like reading to find this out just yet. I thought I might just be lazy and ask since it's bound to be a quick answer...

I just played a round of 4 (lol) $3.40 9-man SNGs at stars, and they seemed ridiculously soft by today's standards....almost like the UIGEA never existed with all the stupid shoving in such bad spots with such weak hands. And, don't get me started on what will call you down.....like Thi.

They seem to only take about 30 minutes to complete, even if you go deep. What is a decent hourly with these things today? Can you guys playing higher take a stab? $6/hr doesn't seem far fetched. Not that it's a living, but $6/hr beats quadding uNL cash most times.

I'd expect about a 10-15% ROI on these if you 8-table these. I'd allow 45 minutes to complete a set, so you can do the math on hourly rate.

Honestly if you want to grind SNGs you're better off at the $6.50s and (even better) the $16s because of the lower rake.

appreciate the quick response. i may jam through a couple hundy of the 6.50s next week or two.

Most important thing if you're grinding SNGs is to get your push/fold game working well. If you don't have it, download SNG Wiz (there's a 30 day free trial) and use that to improve.

pretty sure my P/F game is really bad. good point.

and HU, i felt i do ok in rings and "HU tourneys." but, that's another area that seems like a complete crapshoot right now, too. 4 2nds, and i'd be a fool to think they are 100% variance....lol.

The $6.50's are definitely the sweet-spot. Many players have learned to find the fold button since $6.50 means something to most players. This results is a lot of weak-tight play and incorrect folds, while almost the reverse tends to happen at the $3.40s.

The $16s are a different story with a lot of regular grinders finding a home here. Opponents are tough and many will be winning players. Since your ROI is generally lower, variance comes more into play too. I took a shot at the $16s recently and ran over 100BI bad over 1.5K of tourneys. You pretty much need to have ICM waxed or you are going to get crushed at the $16s.

then, i will get crushed.....lol. i havent ever worked on ICM, other than a basic reading of it.

good to know, nak. thanks. you playing DONs anymore? i know you dabbled last year and a little the year before. i cant find the time, but i thought i noticed them tighten a little last fall.....like the fad had worn off?

Originally Posted by Chopper

then, i will get crushed.....lol. i havent ever worked on ICM, other than a basic reading of it.

good to know, nak. thanks. you playing DONs anymore? i know you dabbled last year and a little the year before. i cant find the time, but i thought i noticed them tighten a little last fall.....like the fad had worn off?

Yeah, I'm back on the $10.40s. I'd like to play the $20.80s, but I can't afford the bankroll hit if I'm 15-tabling and my ISP goes down. Unfortunately for me there are some reliability issues while they are laying the Seacom cable down the East coast of Africa.

Fall would be like the opposite time of the year for me, so I'm guessing you are referring to September or so? There were a load of good regulars at the $10's then, but they seem to have largely disappeared. Apparently the difficultly of games seems to go in cycles as regs get annoyed that the tables are filled with other regs and they move onto other games. I did find some of them at $20's though. The regulars left actually aren't that good. Some have noticeable leaks like calling too much in the BB. I'm playing regularly against two regs who I have 1k plus hands (probably more like 2k now) and they are both calling with around 20% of hands in the BB.

Here's the kicker though, the general standard has improved a lot. I only occasionally see the real donk calls that littered the game when they first began. Don't get me wrong, they still happen and people still make lots of calling mistakes, it just doesn't happen as often. My guess is that a solid win rate at these now is 4-8%. If you are breaking 10% over thousands of tournaments (yes, everyone breaks 10% over small samples like 1000 games), then you are ones of the top players at these.

If you like shorthanded game give the $12+1 6 handed turbo a shot, I think they tend to be softer overall then the $16 9 handed

The DON's used to produce a 62% ITM for me at the 10's. But, I am sure that's a thing of the past. And, even that was nerve racking when the variance kicked in. I, too, see your point about an ISP crash, which is why I have'nt played them in over a year, except for about two sessions....literally. You just can't chuck $120 to the wind when your computer or ISP crashes.

And, theoretically, we don't need but 3-4 players worse than us to have an edge, but I find it harder and harder to pick out which players I have a "clear" edge over. Like you said, the "general" play has improved. But there are still obvious leaks. Hell, there are obvious leaks in MY game, too.

@TLR, i may dabble with 6max type SNGs, but i am more comfortable at full tables for now. I have no idea why. it would be good for my comfort zone to challenge it.

i assume the game is like going from FR cash to 6max cash? just open up a little, never open limp, and realize the hand strength will be a little softer because the blinds are flinging around faster? any other fundamental i may be missing out of the gate?

Most of the pots are heads up or 3 way at most, so hands that work well in multiway pots (like low SC) do not do as well in 6 max

I'm confused...??? You're pretty sure you're p/f game is really weak but are planning on playing a couple hundy turbos? Did I read that correctly?

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

I'm confused...??? You're pretty sure you're p/f game is really weak but are planning on playing a couple hundy turbos? Did I read that correctly?

Ya, this. You HAVE to get good at push/fold before you can grind turbos successfully. There's no other way.

Originally Posted by taipan168

Ya, this. You HAVE to get good at push/fold before you can grind turbos successfully. There's no other way.

i will agree to disagree, at the lowest of stakes, with you guys (i am just not conviced yet based on my results over my dinky sample).

i was going to tell you guys a little "adjustment" i made that has really helped a lot initially, but feel i'd get flamed nowfor making such an erroneous statement w/o the sample to back it up.

my p/f game is likely better than i let on. i have some experience, and crushed the don's for 18 months a year or so ago. sngs are different because you cant really just put it on cruise control once you double up most times. but, the experience is kind of there in these bubbly, p/f spots....kind of.

please dont think that is arrogant. i was trying to be a little more humble because i know i am not super good at these things. but, when it comes to the 340's (and likely the 650s from what you have said), you dont really have to be "great" to have an edge.

and, i haven't been playing turbos...sorry if i mispoke. these are normal speed tourneys i am running. and, again, the sample is ubersmall right now. but, i think i can beat them over a large sample.....we'll see.

here is a HH to shred, but i thought i played it fine. (i felt the turn donk was for pot control, but i was still ahead, and i would be promptly told....at this level.....if he wasnt afraid of the K. my god it looks weak, but most of these guys wont pick up on this.)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.4 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t1125)
UTG (t2945)
MP1 (t1215)
MP2 (t1075)
CO (t3743)
Button (t877)
Hero (SB) (t2520)

Hero's M: 16.80

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 8
UTG calls t100, MP1 calls t100, 3 folds, Hero calls t50, BB checks

Flop: (t400) 5, 4, 4 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets t200, 1 fold, Hero calls t200, 1 fold

Turn: (t800) K (2 players)
Hero bets t200, UTG calls t200

River: (t1200) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

Total pot: t1200

Results below:
Hero had 8, 8 (two pair, eights and fours).
UTG mucked 6, 7 (two pair, sixes and fours).
Outcome: Hero won t1200

jeez, what did i do with the converter?

On your 88 hand, I would definitely have led on the flop. If they are limping with 99+ then good luck to them because they'll need it.

I don't understand your minbet on the turn. What exactly are you hoping to achieve by betting 1/4 of the pot and laying 5:1 odds for opp to call? Either make a real bet or c/c.

Alright guys, I don't feel like reading to find this out just yet. I thought I might just be lazy and ask since it's bound to be a quick answer...

I just played a round of 4 (lol) $3.40 9-man SNGs at stars, and they seemed ridiculously soft by today's standards....almost like the UIGEA never existed with all the stupid shoving in such bad spots with such weak hands. And, don't get me started on what will call you down.....like Thi.

They seem to only take about 30 minutes to complete, even if you go deep. What is a decent hourly with these things today? Can you guys playing higher take a stab? $6/hr doesn't seem far fetched. Not that it's a living, but $6/hr beats quadding uNL cash most times.

This is the wrong question and full of bad reasoning. You know that you have to work on your game and then play, not look for where the play is the softest then bumhunt sngs. Softer than what? What do you compare it to? Maybe soft for you is not soft for me or the other way around.
Also, no use in figuring out hourlies without having played yourself. This means that you are massively results oriented, which in turn means that whatever you play you will be scared money, thus affecting the core of your game.


I guess a generic answer to your question could be this: taking PokerStars as an example, pretty much anything under $114s is full of bad players. There you will start to find bad players that are going for super nova elite, and have like a trillion tables open at the same time. Translation: fucking hudbot nits, which are still bad players but of a different kind.


The only advice I have for you is this: be adequately rolled (and this is highly personal, what works for one does not work for the other) , work on your game, and play for the longterm.




That's pretty much all there is to it.

As a quick illustration of my point Choppa

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 6.5 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Replayer from Poker Hands Replayer



CO (t1442)
Jizzy Sawya (Button) (t1543)
SB (t3065)
BB (t2925)
UTG (t1205)
UTG+1 (t1390)
MP1 (t127)
MP2 (t1803)

Jizzy Sawya's M: 10.29

Preflop: Jizzy Sawya is Button with Q, Q
UTG calls t100, 1 fold, MP1 calls t100, 2 folds, Jizzy Sawya bets t500, 4 folds

Total pot: t450

Results:
Jizzy Sawya didn't show Q, Q (nothing).
Outcome: Jizzy Sawya won t450


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 6.5 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Replayer from Poker Hands Replayer



BB (t1410)
UTG (t2425)
Jizzy Sawya (MP1) (t1485)
MP2 (t1545)
CO (t2165)
Button (t1220)
SB (t3250)

Jizzy Sawya's M: 19.80

Preflop: Jizzy Sawya is MP1 with 8, 9
1 fold, Jizzy Sawya bets t150, 4 folds, BB calls t100

Flop: (t325) 4, A, J (2 players)
BB checks, Jizzy Sawya bets t200, BB calls t200

Turn: (t725) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Jizzy Sawya bets t350, BB raises to t1060 (All-In), Jizzy Sawya calls t710

River: (t2845) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t2845

Results:
BB had A, 7 (one pair, Aces).
Jizzy Sawya had 8, 9 (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: Jizzy Sawya won t2845