Reading is fundamental ! Line check please....

Read on this guy - " Dumb" plays every hand raises 45 with anything and everything. Ace trey is really not my hand, probably not anyones hand. Keep in mind its a five handed game, and I did re raise with A 3 (maybe not the best thing) but an Ace 3 handed will sometimes do the trick. I was in the BB and was tired of this dude stealing blinds at such a low level. He had just lost 200 in chips and showed down J 2 os. Also, he is the type that likes to pay for drawing.. I watched him bet out a minimum bet all the way along to show down 4 7 suited for a flush. Those are my two reads.. Maybe I need some help with reading players better.. So with your guys comments about the hand, please share the knowledge. Thanks Ryan

5 + 1 5 Max SNG. Paradise .

Game #1303572344 (Level I, Game #2) - 5/10 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2006/02/22-00:27:55.5 (CST)
Table "Abuta (5 max)" ($5 tournament) -- Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: scrappy1209 (1,000.00 in chips)
Seat 2: $DUCKETS$ (995.00 in chips)
Seat 3: sid12 (790.00 in chips)
Seat 4: fasin8ning (1,000.00 in chips)
Seat 5: ilikedmb4 (1,215.00 in chips)
sid12 : Post Small Blind (5)
fasin8ning: Post Big Blind (10)
Dealing...
Dealt to fasin8ning [ 3d ]
Dealt to fasin8ning [ As ]
ilikedmb4: Raise (40)
scrappy1209: Fold
$DUCKETS$: Fold
sid12 : Call (35)
fasin8ning: Raise (100)
ilikedmb4: Call (70)
sid12 : Call (70)
*** FLOP *** : [ 7d Qd 4c ]
sid12 : Bet (10)
fasin8ning: Raise (55) <~~~~~ what are your thoughts? Is this dude on a diamond draw?
ilikedmb4: Fold
sid12 : Call (45)
*** TURN *** : [ 7d Qd 4c ] [ 2c ]
sid12 : Check
fasin8ning: Bet (260) <~~~~~~~~~ what are your thoughts? Is this dude on a diamond draw?
sid12 : Call (260)
*** RIVER *** : [ 7d Qd 4c 2c ] [ 5c ]
sid12 : Bet (325) <~~~~~~~~~~ Are you kidding ?

I punished and punished. Comments please.. This was a tough one for me.

this one is an easy answer
Fold Preflop.

Why are u making a stand with A3?

You raised 40 with a pot of 300. That's not punishing. That's not chasing anyone out. It's barely 1/2 of your pre-flop bet.

You bet 250 with a pot of 400. Better, but he still gets 3:1 odds to call. While a good play against a thinking player, this is hardly punishing.

Looking back, your raise pre-flop is weak too. They only have to call 70, if you want to send a message that your hand is really strong, raise to 200 (3x the current pot size).

If he's dumb I have no idea what he might have. 74 for two pair? 36, 68 for straight? Who knows. My advice, don't try to bluff the dumb loose calling stations. Get a good hand, bet the same and he'll call and you'll be happy.

{EDIT: I think vqc has the right answer (his post came up while I was typing)}

Ok .. with that said.. Youre right.. There is no answer for this. Except it appeared to me that the UTG noticed what I did and was trying to gain position on the guy with some kind of hand. I had played tight and folded my both my blinds twice already up until this point. I was making a stand..... But Iam sure I did it in front of the table with a tight image. 2 rounds, folded every hand up unto this point. Everyone had played 3,4,5 hands. So if my table image isnt loose or maniac, and its tight.. Whats the problem here?

So I should have raised more on the flop?

Originally Posted by fasin8ing

2 rounds, folded every hand up unto this point. Everyone had played 3,4,5 hands. So if my table image isnt loose or maniac, and its tight.. Whats the problem here?

It's a $5 table and they don't pay attention to table image. It's only been ten hands, so maybe you just had a bad run of cards?

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by fasin8ing

2 rounds, folded every hand up unto this point. Everyone had played 3,4,5 hands. So if my table image isnt loose or maniac, and its tight.. Whats the problem here?

It's a $5 table and they don't pay attention to table image. It's only been ten hands, so maybe you just had a bad run of cards?

Ok today is when I learn something. Swiggidy, what can I do to get a read on a 5 dollar player?

This reply is as much for me as it is you. If anyone else has criticism, or something to add I would appreciate hearing it. There is nothing new or revolutionary in the following, just my understanding of the game right now. I don't develop sophisticates reads, but I'm getting along just fine at $5 without them.

You did get a read on a $5 player. You said he was dumb.

Originally Posted by I

If he's dumb I have no idea what he might have. 74 for two pair? 36, 68 for straight? Who knows. My advice, don't try to bluff the dumb loose calling stations. Get a good hand, bet the same and he'll call and you'll be happy.

See, if he's dumb he doesn't understand the significance of your turn bet. If you bet pot and he's on a draw he may still call. The problem here is you don't have a hand to back it up. Typically, if I have TPGK or better, and there are two to a flush and I'm playing a dumb player I bet 2/3 pot on flop, then pot the turn (if the flush doesn't complete).

Other better players at FTR can read their opponents and play them like puppets. I can't do this, so I just bet my good hands strong and let the bad players come along for the ride. In the early rounds I don't pay enough attention, but when I do pay attention I loosely categorize the players. If they are min-betting, min-raising they are a donk and I don't suspect plays from them. If they are pot betting I give them some credit and don't mix it up with them unless I have a great hand.

Another thing to be wary of is changes in betting patterns. If they bet (or check) every flop, then all of the sudden check (or raise), a red flag should go up. My reads are good enough now that I tell myself "don't call, don't call, don't call" only to call their river bet and loose. Then I get mad at myself. The fact that they don't notice you sitting out for two rounds, then betting indicates you have an edge over them because you will notice a change in their pattern.

You should start noticing them reacting to your play. I've been playing extremely tight at full table, $5, SnGs. When the blinds get to 100 I start throwing out 3x pre-flop raises. Everyone will fold to the first two or three. Then they start calling so you throw out a c-bet and then they fold. After you do this a couple times they start to look you up on occasion. Here is a benefit to playing tight early, if you showdown an OK hand after a pre-flop raise, and a c-bet they won't give you as much credit later when the blinds are high. I like to limp drawing hands early, if you hit you can de-stack someone, if you don't it's easy to let go. If they don't adept to your actions, Keep doing it!! Occasionaly a table will fold to your constant 3x raises until they get blinded out and you win.

Anyway back to reads. You play 5 person SnG. Play tight for the first 2 blind levels, try not to get married to your hand. Watch the other players. If you're lucky they're all aggressive, or all passive. If they're all aggressive don't play with them unless you have a great hand. If they're all passive run over them when the blinds get big. Don't take a stand until the blinds are worth it. If they're agro, have a good hand because you might go to showdown. If they're passive A3 is probably good (but beware the person who slowplays their good hands, don't bet into them with air).

I feel like I'm rambling, but if you learned anything I will consider it a success (and be slightly amazed). Let's try a summary:

• Do they draw with odds, or do they have no conception of odds?
  Do they play good starting hands, or have no conception of starting hands?
  Does he bet good hands and check bad hands, or bet bad hands and check good hands?
  How much does he bet (relative to pot), is this bet different than previous bets?
  On a scale of 1-5, where do you place his poker ability?

These are just general questions, but things I notice about other people's hands. If you give them a low skill level and they think for a long time before calling you can assume they have a bad hand and push if a non-scary card comes. If you give them a high skill level and they think for a long time I would be worried they are setting a trap.

I'm seriously done now, thanks for your time and patience.

I couldnt have asked for more. Thank you .

Bottom line is to play tight against terrible players. Don't become loose because your table is loose. Just punish them with good hands. That is all.

You don't need to make plays against them like you tried to do with you A4o. Don't even play this hand.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

Bottom line is to play tight against terrible players. Don't become loose because your table is loose. Just punish them with good hands. That is all.

You don't need to make plays against them like you tried to do with you A4o. Don't even play this hand.

I will tighten up my play. I promise.
I seriously have learned my lesson, even hitting my straight on the the river.

We all get lucky at times, that goes without saying. However it is important to know when we get lucky in a hand and don't subscribe it to skill.
You got lucky here. I have'nt read everything but your play seems pretty horrible in this hand. Unfortunately for you, you won the hand.
It wouldve been better had you lost it... this is a article i think you should read if you have'nt already. If you have, you should read it again after all "reading is fundamental".

[quote="thnwkd"]We all get lucky at times, that goes without saying. It wouldve been better had you lost it[quote]


Yes we do , if you look back at the hand again.. I played A 3 os.. I caught my straight at the end. He was drawing for a flush, A 7 clubs. I put him on a diamond flush draw.. Does my mentality in this hand make like no sense whatsoever? Seriously? He causght his flush at the river to make his hand.. I caught my straight. I really am trying to get some advice on reading people. Maybe I should change the post topic.

Look at his hand. On the flop he has 2nd pair, top kicker. A call of 40 on the flop is definitely worth looking you up to see if you have the queen/higher pp. He gets a flush draw on the turn plus he figures he has 3 outs for two pair with the A.

You want a read. Be very very wary when someone calls your flop and turn bets, the bets at the river. You have to call the river bet with the straight, but if you had QK you should probably lay it down.

Originally Posted by thnwkd

I have'nt read everything but your play seems pretty horrible in this hand.

He's right. You need to focus on playing pre-flop and flop poker before you worry about reading people. That will come with time.