Real simple, quick question

PokerStars Game #8282138496: Tournament #41630318, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (2000/4000) - 2007/02/04 - 17:58:01 (ET)
Table '41630318 78' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: sebbauu (67787 in chips)
Seat 2: The13thWhale (152560 in chips)
Seat 3: redgrape (97305 in chips)
Seat 4: ChkUrPokts (94183 in chips)
Seat 5: sOuKillerZ (2500 in chips)
Seat 6: PerryK (100944 in chips)
Seat 7: LANCNYOPANTZ (106410 in chips)
Seat 8: nutcase (21636 in chips)
Seat 9: PokerRice (41326 in chips)
sebbauu: posts the ante 200
The13thWhale: posts the ante 200
redgrape: posts the ante 200
ChkUrPokts: posts the ante 200
sOuKillerZ: posts the ante 200
PerryK: posts the ante 200
LANCNYOPANTZ: posts the ante 200
nutcase: posts the ante 200
PokerRice: posts the ante 200
PokerRice: posts small blind 2000
sebbauu: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [As Jc]
The13thWhale: folds
redgrape: raises 6000 to 10000

should i fold this?

another quick one:

caller is just a little loose.

PokerStars Game #8282637154: Tournament #41630318, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (4000/8000) - 2007/02/04 - 18:32:27 (ET)
Table '41630318 78' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: sebbauu (143163 in chips)
Seat 2: The13thWhale (214660 in chips)
Seat 3: redgrape (101905 in chips)
Seat 4: ChkUrPokts (152038 in chips)
Seat 5: Rumrem (29069 in chips)
Seat 6: PerryK (63944 in chips)
Seat 7: sh00vf (233086 in chips)
Seat 8: akauminer (89074 in chips)
Seat 9: PokerRice (108317 in chips)
sebbauu: posts the ante 400
The13thWhale: posts the ante 400
redgrape: posts the ante 400
ChkUrPokts: posts the ante 400
Rumrem: posts the ante 400
PerryK: posts the ante 400
sh00vf: posts the ante 400
akauminer: posts the ante 400
PokerRice: posts the ante 400
The13thWhale: posts small blind 4000
redgrape: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [7s 8c]
ChkUrPokts: folds
Rumrem: raises 20669 to 28669 and is all-in
PerryK: folds
sh00vf: folds
akauminer: folds
PokerRice: folds
sebbauu: calls 28669
The13thWhale: folds
redgrape: calls 20669

hand 1 - AJ UG+1.

I like your play since blinds and antes have kicked in.

Hand 2 - I fold.

Originally Posted by chardrian

hand 1 - AJ UG+1.

I like your play since blinds and antes have kicked in.

Hand 2 - I fold.

Same for me. There's no need to call in hand 2. This is weird because you are unsure about raising AJ but you are able and willing to call 20k with 76o.

Originally Posted by chardrian

hand 1 - AJ UG+1.

I like your play since blinds and antes have kicked in.

I agree. You're in Harrington's Yellow Zone with an M of 13.5 so its fine to open with AJo in EP.

The second hand you are well into the Orange Zone with an M of 6.5 and sitting on just under 13xBB. In this situation, I don't generally make speculative plays like this -- I'm keeping my powder dry for a push after I come out of the blinds so I can double up. I always like to be the first to act when I'm this short. If this were earlier, or you were sitting on a huge stack, yeah maybe.

cobere hit the nail on the head there when talking about why the 2nd hand is a fold. Sure, you're getting amazing odds on your money, but the 20k chips you have to pay are more important than those odds given your short stack. It's also more of a fold with the MP caller than if it had been folded to you. Double your stack size and this is a pretty reasonable call. Cut your stack in half and remove the other caller and there's again a strong argument for calling. Where your stack is right now, however, is just the perfect place to make this a fold.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

cobere hit the nail on the head there when talking about why the 2nd hand is a fold. Sure, you're getting amazing odds on your money, but the 20k chips you have to pay are more important than those odds given your short stack. It's also more of a fold with the MP caller than if it had been folded to you. Double your stack size and this is a pretty reasonable call. Cut your stack in half and remove the other caller and there's again a strong argument for calling. Where your stack is right now, however, is just the perfect place to make this a fold.

so you're saying fold even without the late position caller??

seems a little strange to me.

Originally Posted by Massimo

so you're saying fold even without the late position caller??

seems a little strange to me.

It's closer, but yes, I am.

Stack size usually trumps odds in tournament play. Here is one of those times.

Originally Posted by Massimo

PokerStars Game #8282138496: Tournament #41630318, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (2000/4000) - 2007/02/04 - 17:58:01 (ET)
Table '41630318 78' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: sebbauu (67787 in chips)
Seat 2: The13thWhale (152560 in chips)
Seat 3: redgrape (97305 in chips)
Seat 4: ChkUrPokts (94183 in chips)
Seat 5: sOuKillerZ (2500 in chips)
Seat 6: PerryK (100944 in chips)
Seat 7: LANCNYOPANTZ (106410 in chips)
Seat 8: nutcase (21636 in chips)
Seat 9: PokerRice (41326 in chips)
sebbauu: posts the ante 200
The13thWhale: posts the ante 200
redgrape: posts the ante 200
ChkUrPokts: posts the ante 200
sOuKillerZ: posts the ante 200
PerryK: posts the ante 200
LANCNYOPANTZ: posts the ante 200
nutcase: posts the ante 200
PokerRice: posts the ante 200
PokerRice: posts small blind 2000
sebbauu: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [As Jc]
The13thWhale: folds
redgrape: raises 6000 to 10000

should i fold this?

i am a bit of a rock and i fold this unless table is really really really tight or we are on the bubble

Originally Posted by Massimo

another quick one:

caller is just a little loose.

PokerStars Game #8282637154: Tournament #41630318, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (4000/8000) - 2007/02/04 - 18:32:27 (ET)
Table '41630318 78' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: sebbauu (143163 in chips)
Seat 2: The13thWhale (214660 in chips)
Seat 3: redgrape (101905 in chips)
Seat 4: ChkUrPokts (152038 in chips)
Seat 5: Rumrem (29069 in chips)
Seat 6: PerryK (63944 in chips)
Seat 7: sh00vf (233086 in chips)
Seat 8: akauminer (89074 in chips)
Seat 9: PokerRice (108317 in chips)
sebbauu: posts the ante 400
The13thWhale: posts the ante 400
redgrape: posts the ante 400
ChkUrPokts: posts the ante 400
Rumrem: posts the ante 400
PerryK: posts the ante 400
sh00vf: posts the ante 400
akauminer: posts the ante 400
PokerRice: posts the ante 400
The13thWhale: posts small blind 4000
redgrape: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [7s 8c]
ChkUrPokts: folds
Rumrem: raises 20669 to 28669 and is all-in
PerryK: folds
sh00vf: folds
akauminer: folds
PokerRice: folds
sebbauu: calls 28669
The13thWhale: folds
redgrape: calls 20669

i think that call is wrong. i dont suscribe to the ridiculus fishy concept that alot of casino fish have that if someone else calls then it somehow gives u value for ur trash hand. u dont have enough chips to make this call. u have just put in 20% of ur stack with a rag hand. madness

Originally Posted by Zidane18

Originally Posted by Massimo

another quick one:

caller is just a little loose.

PokerStars Game #8282637154: Tournament #41630318, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (4000/8000) - 2007/02/04 - 18:32:27 (ET)
Table '41630318 78' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: sebbauu (143163 in chips)
Seat 2: The13thWhale (214660 in chips)
Seat 3: redgrape (101905 in chips)
Seat 4: ChkUrPokts (152038 in chips)
Seat 5: Rumrem (29069 in chips)
Seat 6: PerryK (63944 in chips)
Seat 7: sh00vf (233086 in chips)
Seat 8: akauminer (89074 in chips)
Seat 9: PokerRice (108317 in chips)
sebbauu: posts the ante 400
The13thWhale: posts the ante 400
redgrape: posts the ante 400
ChkUrPokts: posts the ante 400
Rumrem: posts the ante 400
PerryK: posts the ante 400
sh00vf: posts the ante 400
akauminer: posts the ante 400
PokerRice: posts the ante 400
The13thWhale: posts small blind 4000
redgrape: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [7s 8c]
ChkUrPokts: folds
Rumrem: raises 20669 to 28669 and is all-in
PerryK: folds
sh00vf: folds
akauminer: folds
PokerRice: folds
sebbauu: calls 28669
The13thWhale: folds
redgrape: calls 20669

i think that call is wrong. i dont suscribe to the ridiculus fishy concept that alot of casino fish have that if someone else calls then it somehow gives u value for ur trash hand. u dont have enough chips to make this call. u have just put in 20% of ur stack with a rag hand. madness

sorry just read that back and it sounds rude which it is not meant to be. i think the fold is right

With the other caller I agree with the posters, I fold this one. You don't know his calling range here, you are probably not in good shape. With just you and him, its 20.6k more to win 3.6k (antes) + 4k (sb) + 8k (bb) + 20.6k (his bet). So that's 20.6k to win 36.2k you are getting 1.75:1 on your money.

Given you are likely 1.5:1 against most his range, you are even money vs an underpair and a big dog vs an overpair 4:1. There are a couple more combinations of overpairs than undepairs out there too. Given the odds a call is reasonable here, but like other posters said, given your stack I like a fold better.

You are not yet in situation where you are forced to take this gamble, give yourself a chance to catch some cards later, fold here. You fold here you are still in the yellow zone, you call and lose you drop to the red-zone. Like Harrington said, you want to try to keep yourself out of the redzone. Also even if you do drop from the yellow zone to the red zone, you want to maintain as big a stack so when you are pushing you have good fold equity.

Hand 1 - I raise this all day. +8k is a very nice addition to your stack, and if you're called you have a decent hand.

Hand 2 - If I do ANYTHING, I'm reshoving. If I think the big stack is calling just because he has chips (i.e. doesn't have a good hand), I'll reshove there and with any luck, big stack folds and you take an all-in with what is likely two live cards with a LOT of dead money in the middle.

I fold this 95% of the time though.

Edit for numbers - If bigstack folds, you're essentially calling 20k to win 94k.. if you think he'll fold his like KTo or JTs, I think it's a very nice play to make.