What the hell is going on here?

Did I handle this correctly? Ordinarily I'm all about slamming my chips in with an OESD and flush draw, but this felt like a bad situation. New to the table, so the only reads I have on these players are what you see here, pretty much. Usually when I see a player with large stack engaging in some check-re-raising, I'm thinking he's decent.

***** Hand History for Game 4550915741 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, June 19, 15:24:27 ET 2006
Table Table 109831 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Suomela1 ( $45.50 )
Seat 2: Julesemm ( $36.75 )
Seat 4: JDCA6 ( $97.75 )
Seat 5: UDONTWANTIT1 ( $110.26 )
Seat 6: stressball10 ( $48.25 )
Seat 3: cholo_jones ( $40.75 )
UDONTWANTIT1 posts small blind [$0.25].
stressball10 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 4d 8d ]
Suomela1 calls [$0.50].
Julesemm folds.
cholo_jones folds.
JDCA6 calls [$0.50].
UDONTWANTIT1 calls [$0.25].
stressball10 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, 2c, 5d ]
UDONTWANTIT1 checks.
stressball10 bets [$1.25].
Suomela1 folds.
JDCA6 raises [$3.40].
UDONTWANTIT1 raises [$8.90].
stressball10 calls [$7.65].
JDCA6 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
UDONTWANTIT1 bets [$24].
stressball10 folds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, 2c, 5d ]
UDONTWANTIT1 checks.
stressball10 bets [$1.25].
Suomela1 folds.
JDCA6 raises [$3.40].
UDONTWANTIT1 raises [$8.90].
stressball10 folds
JDCA6 folds.

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fixed your hand history.

With a raise and a re-raise you are likely way behind here. For the str8, any 4 is a split, 46 (and maybe 47 have you drawing dead, and almost any 2 diamonds kill your flush. check raise is likely a set/A4 or 2 pair and the turn 2 puts the boat possibility out there. There are much better spots to gamble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bear Bones

With a raise and a re-raise you are likely way behind here. For the str8, any 4 is a split, 46 (and maybe 47 have you drawing dead, and almost any 2 diamonds kill your flush. check raise is likely a set/A4 or 2 pair and the turn 2 puts the boat possibility out there. There are much better spots to gamble.

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Is being super-tight the new hobby around here? Two way:

Board: 3d 2c 5d
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 43.2456 % 39.46% 03.79% { 8d4d }
Hand 2: 56.7544 % 52.97% 03.79% { 55, 33-22, A4s, 64s, 53s, A4o, 64o, 53o }

1,246,140 games 0.329 secs 3,787,659 games/sec

Three way:

Board: 2c 3d 5d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 31.7448 % 27.96% 03.79% { 8d4d }
Hand 2: 37.6635 % 31.14% 06.53% { 55, 33-22, A4s, 64s, A4o, 64o }
Hand 3: 30.5917 % 24.45% 06.14% { 55-22, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, A4s, 7d6d, 64s, A4o, 64o }

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I can imagine few scenarios here in which I am a significant dog - I'd have to have some very accurate reads to think I was way behind to either of these guys, let alone both of them. I'm getting laid 2:1 from the pot with three way action and strong implied odds. About the only problem is that I'm not confident in both of my draws. If I thought both of the players would call, I actually think there's a good case for just pushing here. The problem is that I think there's a strong chance the first raiser folds (as he did even without me pushing), which takes some of my odds away. Tell me if you think the above hand ranges are off - I happen to think they're very close to correct on two moderately aggressive players. In fact I think the hand range for the first raiser here was too tight - I didn't include any of the overpairs that he could easily make that first raise with. The check-raiser's range is a lot scarier IMO.

this is insta-push imo or fold but folding is sooooo weak

Why no push All-In on the flop? Why the call? My buest guess is he already has a made Str8, and doesn't want the flush drawers chasing.

Dalecooper: This is the type of hand you had gone over with me last year, for which you advocating pusjing in most occasions. Interesting to see you do the backstroke on this one hand on this occasion. Why is it different now? You said your giving him credit due to his stack size and check-raise, but you never stated what you thought his hand to be. Only a made str8 for him brings down your odds.. (Then your only drawing to a flush). How many times have you seen someone do a checkraise with less then excellent hands?

I still think the push on the flop, but then again I learned that from you.

--Caveman

I can't find a fold. To me it's either a re-raise (push) or call. If the 2nd raise was larger I think you could make a case, but I'm getting 2:1 when there's almost no chance I'm that big of a dog - especially not to just one of them. Either I'm something like a 6:4 dog to the check-raiser, or I'm about a 2:1 dog against both of them - and with a healthy existing pot neither of those adds up to a fold, for me.

Caveman - against just one opponent I would usually push this, unless our stacks were super-deep relative to the pot AND I knew the opponent was solid. Then I might be more inclined to look at it as a drawing hand.

There are a few factors that make me proceed with more caution here, though:

1. It's a multi-way pot and the 2nd raiser has shown enormous strength. I feel like it's highly likely that he has a set or a made straight - and if he has specifically the 64 nut straight, I'm in a worse situation than I'd like to be.

2. Neither of my draws is actually that good in isolation. I have an 8-high flush draw and a straight draw that only involves one of my two cards. If both my cards were in the straight draw, I'd be happier with it; I'd even be happier with it if I had 4d7d because then a 6 means I drew the nuts and am no longer splitting with the made 64 straight.

Basically, this is a hand I feel I can't fold for the price I'm getting, but it's also a somewhat nebulous hand in a really grey situation.

But caution doesn't necessarily translate into a call instead of a push. Just because I don't think I should fold doesn't mean that calling is better. I'm really curious to analyze this in more detail, but it will have to wait until tomorrow since I'm heading home now. I called basically because I thought I would see if I could hit one of my draws against the guy showing the most aggression and then stack him on it, thereby minimizing my own risk; I also thought I might get an overcall from the button player, which would increase my profit on the hand, but he was smart enough to get the hell out early. What I'm not sure about is if it's better to keep him in or force him out. Keeping him in increases the pot size and gives me better calling odds with my draw, but forcing him out increases my chance of winning the pot - especially if he has a higher flush draw.

This is a good one.

Quote:

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What I'm not sure about is if it's better to keep him in or force him out. Keeping him in increases the pot size and gives me better calling odds with my draw, but forcing him out increases my chance of winning the pot - especially if he has a higher flush draw.

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Meh. I don't see an over call by anything other than a(nother) set or bigger flush draw. You really don't want to keep the Ad in.

I guess calling here is good if you can make the laydown when the board pairs (bleah). This whole hand seems like a very slim edge.

You have a mediocre combo draw to the non-nuts, can only beat a 7-high unimproved, and no folding equity against 2 villians who have shown strength in an unraised pot.

Quote:

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and no folding equity against 2 villians who have shown strength in an unraised pot

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I disagree. Look at the raises the check raiser is making. After his check raise, he is making Pot sized bets, not putting his whole stack at stake. I think over-pocket pair is a possibility as well as a Set, 2 pair, or the made Str8. Thats 4 possible hands that could make this kind of play; the Made St8 the only one to place the odds just slightly in his favor.Either way his play represents he is trying getting rid of the drawing hands.

I think you have plenty of fold equity. Yes, he might have the made St8, but if he has overpairs (or even 2 pair or a set) your still the favorite and I think you want him to call. (Although a fold is nice as well)

If he happens to have the St8 and calls you, and you don't draw the flush, well, it was a calculated risk.

No fold. Call? Possibly. Push. Push. Push

I believe I have fold equity against the button. He's a deep stack, clearly an aggressive player - both of which suggests he may be decent. His hand range for raising there is pretty wide, I would speculate.

The check-re-raise is a lot more troublesome and I have to think my fold equity against him is very low. I don't think there's any way he makes that raise against another deep stack and a second, unknown player with just an overpair. Personally I thought at the time that he had a set or a made straight.