25 NL 6max. KK. Line check.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($21.55)
UTG ($39.30)
MP ($46.05)
Button ($26.76)
Hero ($25.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
3 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $0.9, BB raises to $1.5, Hero raises to $3.9, BB calls $2.25.

Flop: ($8) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5.32, BB calls $5.32.

Turn: ($18.64) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $2, Hero calls $2.

River: ($22.64) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Final Pot: $22.64

I might hammer it harder pre-flop, but it looks fine.

If we are 3betting preflop it should probably be bigger than that.

Why are we betting this flop? What better hands are folding? If villain called with Ax he is not folding when he hits his ace and it isnt very likely that he is calling without one. Basically our flop bet is going to be folding out the worse hands and keeping the better ones around which is exactly the opposite of what we want here. Check the flop, call if he bets. If he bets Im most likely c/f the turn, if he checks behind Im betting the turn and expecting to be called by a lot of mid pocket pair type hands.

classic thread for this type of hand
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-21766.htm

Like andy-akb wrote, I only think betting flop is good against the 80%+ vpip types who call with any pair or gut shot, but most players betting flop is -ev.

(edit...just realized you posted a lot in that thread, so why'd you bet this flop?)

By default I'm checking this flop with QQ/KK/AA and sometimes AK.

Yeah the best line is to check the flop. I play it like j_fish said. I'd always bet my AK at 25NL though.

right its gabes zomg big PP with A on flop.

i kno that very few players if any pay attention to my play at NL25 so it wont matter if I bet AK here and check KK here. Since I dont check Ax behind here, I didnt check my KK behind here. I guess it doesnt matter.

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Originally Posted by andy-akb

If we are 3betting preflop it should probably be bigger than that.

Why are we betting this flop? What better hands are folding? If villain called with Ax he is not folding when he hits his ace and it isnt very likely that he is calling without one. Basically our flop bet is going to be folding out the worse hands and keeping the better ones around which is exactly the opposite of what we want here. Check the flop, call if he bets. If he bets Im most likely c/f the turn, if he checks behind Im betting the turn and expecting to be called by a lot of mid pocket pair type hands.

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is that line a joke? Why would you advise not betting this flop, but check/calling?

i think its played as well as it can be -

I always bet the flop then check fold, i'm ULTRA AGGRESSIVE tho, according to PT :cool:

very often i'd buck half my stack in PF as well and push most flops, most of my $$ comes from AA / KK / Sets and i dont really care any more

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

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Originally Posted by andy-akb

If we are 3betting preflop it should probably be bigger than that.

Why are we betting this flop? What better hands are folding? If villain called with Ax he is not folding when he hits his ace and it isnt very likely that he is calling without one. Basically our flop bet is going to be folding out the worse hands and keeping the better ones around which is exactly the opposite of what we want here. Check the flop, call if he bets. If he bets Im most likely c/f the turn, if he checks behind Im betting the turn and expecting to be called by a lot of mid pocket pair type hands.

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is that line a joke? Why would you advise not betting this flop, but check/calling?

i think its played as well as it can be -

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No, this isnt a joke and I clearly explained why that line would work which is something that seemed to elude you in your post. What are we trying to accomplish by betting this flop against most opponents? We arent folding out a better hand. If an ace called a PFR, he is not folding when he makes TP and you bet. There arent any real draws to protect against unless you think he is playing a very low SC like this which is incredibly doubtful. There were no reads posted at all in this hand, unless we assume that our opponent is a calling station, we are not going to be getting a call from a worse hand very often at all, maybe something like QQ but thats doubtful and we can get more from those hands with the line I suggested. By checking this flop and calling a bet we are often getting bets from hands that do not have an Ace, we gain value from this. If they check behind and we bet the turn we will often get called by mid PPs, giving us even more value.

I thought I had explained most of this in my original post, but I guess not. What part of this do you not agree with?

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

is that line a joke? Why would you advise not betting this flop, but check/calling?

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better hands always call and some worse hands might bluff, thats why betting is bad

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

is that line a joke? Why would you advise not betting this flop, but check/calling?

i think its played as well as it can be -

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See the link that benny999 posted. Read that whole thing in it's entirety if you want to win at poker.

at higher levels i assume that if u check behind here often with KK and QQ u must also check behind with AK AQ at least some part of the time
correct?

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Originally Posted by vqc

at higher levels i assume that if u check behind here often with KK and QQ u must also check behind with AK AQ at least some part of the time
correct?

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Yup. And often the players are good enough that if you bet the only thing they will call you with is a set. There is no call AI with AT going on :(

i went and read that link - thanks - I don't mean to sound the way that came off - Let me put it this way - This turned into a blind battle, correct? So, if i'm in the BB and the SB fires a 3xBB bet into me, won't I re-raise my BB with many pocket pairs, any broadway cards, or anything semi decent - I would - The SB raise there seems like an attempt to steal the BB or simply gain initiative - How can BB put you on a real hand there? So, when the flop comes an Ace lets say the BB has JJ (a very good re-raising hand against a SB raise) - The flop bet now scares me from the BB (If i don't have an ace) if i'm a thinking player - HOWEVER, the BB has $21 which isn't short, but he's certainly not up money yet - So I think check/call is really weak on the flop - Leading the flop with a strong bet seems like the right move, to me - Because if he has a med. PP or a KQ type hand (again, i think alot of 25NL players would re-raise from the BB with those hands), we are telling him we have the best hand - and hero check called a small bet on the turn and river went check/check for a pretty cheap showdown....thats why I think he played it well -

and that thread got great discussion, but didn't seem like there was any resolution...just everyones opinion...We still believe in defensive betting, don't we? I do -

but no, i dind't mean to sound insulting or anything - the check/fold flop makes more sense than check/calling to me -

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

and that thread got great discussion, but didn't seem like there was any resolution...just everyones opinion...We still believe in defensive betting, don't we? I do -

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i dont mean to sound crass, but what i said in that thread is right

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Originally Posted by gabe

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

and that thread got great discussion, but didn't seem like there was any resolution...just everyones opinion...We still believe in defensive betting, don't we? I do -

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i dont mean to sound crass, but what i said in that thread is right

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what gabe said is 100% correct
u just must at some point check behind there with an A as well otehrwise ur play is too easy to read.

okay - hold on 1 second - So now we're saying there is something in Poker that we do 100% of the time? um, i don't think that can be true - There has to be plenty of situations where leading the flop is good and checking the flop is good - to just say this is right, period, is kinda silly - we aren't talking about mixing up our games - We got no reads on who BB was, or how your table image is at that time - I think that since your heads up, its quite likely you have the best hand - If i've got 3 callers then no, i don't lead that flop - but heads up, 5 handed, in a blind battle, i think the Kings are good here most of the time - The pot is big enough, IMO, that we should take it down - We didn't with the flop bet, but we still got to showdown for only $2 more - Im not advocating stacking off here, but doesn't pure aggression take down the pot more often than not -

i don't think a hard-fast rule can be implemented - If he's "bluffing" at us, how much are we willing to call? I don't wanna call down with the ace on board - the smooth call he made on the flop was enough for me to think he has Ax - I think leading the turn is a mistake, but not the flop - Hand values are way different in a blind battle than in the 1st hand of a tourney -

its got me wondering though - the fact that its a blind battle doesn't come into play here for anyone? Its just that its right to check/call the flop -

im gonna be a full house by the end of this discussion :)

also, I think we are giving the villain too much credit - Flat out, 25NL players call down Ace high flops looking to hit their 2 outers - I see it all the time - Yesterday I had a guy calling me down with pocket 4's on a J22QK board - I flopped quads with my ducks and he kept 3 betting me - Then he called and showed his 44 in disgust - The things that 25NL players do will amaze you...Don't give them that much credit - the decent ones will give credit or call down with an ace, but decent players stick out pretty well at 25NL - of course we don't know anything about our BB -

the reason check-calling is right here is that, over the long run your opp will have the ace many times, and many times he wont. on those times when he does have the ace we lose money. but, on those times when he doesnt have the ace we make money by having him bet into us when we are ahead. if we take the lead with an ace on the board then 99 and TT and JJ and QQ may get scared and fold, meaning we dont make any more money when we are ahead. but these hands will most likely bet the turn after we check the flop thinking that the ace is a scare card for us as well.

i think that is too black & white for me - the problem I have is how much can we call with the ace on board? Your saying long term you just call most moderate bets with the ace, but fold to a real bet? Don't you think that a good player will outplay you most of the time when we play it weak/passive? Even though I agree with the letting worse hands bet into us, the guy betting with JJ will feel very confident if your just calling down - Confident enough that a pot size bet on the river turns into a big mistake (because we can't call)...that is my long term thought with this - In this specific hand, I think the BB could easily be playing back at us with much worse hands - Any ace, maybe - but most of the time 25NL players who have the SB make an avg. raise, they don't give a lot of credit and will play back with much less than we have - I would - I would see the SB as doing nothing more than trying to outmaneuver me here, and I would play back at him with any PP, KQ, etc - If the hero check led to the villain betting a large portion on the turn, I could easily let my Kings go - Because I led out - It just seems too weak to check/call and hope that the villain will let you keep the pot small -

And Gabe should be backing this line - I mean come on Gabe - "9 high isn't good, so i push" - thats classic right there - :)

im getting really long winded in this, and im not sure why i feel strongly about this hand - Its just not cut and dried for me - I understand what everyone is saying, but I think in the hand given (and many other examples) leading out is the stronger play - Take the same hand and get an UTG caller, and the BB still makes this play, I am much more likely to believe he would have it - But in a battle of blinds, with a very standard raise, I could (have seen is more correct) see the BB overplaying hands that we dominate - And in those cases, how can we keep check/calling? - That seems to me like it would definitely lose more money than us taking initiative - simply because a check/call is either a monster or really week - Most of the time it indicates weakness, so when they keep betting at us with JJ, the pot gets too big - i will stop though - I seem to be the only one of this opinion :)

how about just try check calling and tell us yourself how it works out

even if we do bet out, if JJ wants to take this pot away from us then it can. if you get raised on the flop here after betting (which JJ can do) then how confident are you in your KK? you have asked a question of your opponent, do you have the ace (or can you beat the ace) and they have answered that they can. so you fold your KK. the problem is, they could have almost anything here, but you have to give them credit for a better hand.
worse case scenario is when its a small A, then the opp might just call your flop bet. now what do you do on the turn. you know that most of the time the only hand that calls your bet here is the ace. do you bet the turn again hoping that they can lay down their weak ace? if not, then you check and your opponent can now bet with any two cards and expect you to fold a good amount of the time.

the problem as i see it is, if you bet and face any sort of resistance at all (which includes a call) then you have to slow down and assume you are beaten. you have taken away the opportunity for worse hands to bet at this pot by taking the lead. now you are much more likely to be facing a better hand than yours. but worse, you are building the pot for your opponent.

in summary, the fact that (most of the time) only an ace is going to put more money in the pot if you bet makes this a losing play. not only are you losing what you have put into the pot, you are also losing what a lesser hand would have put in the pot had you allowed it to.

i just realized that this is one of those situations where a short stack would have a much easier time, because a short stack could bet at the ace and expect a much wider range to call/raise than a full stack. especially in a blind battle.

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

And Gabe should be backing this line - I mean come on Gabe - "9 high isn't good, so i push" - thats classic right there - :)

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the difference there is 9 high has (virtually) no chance of being good, whereas your KK has a decent chance of being the best hand.

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Originally Posted by gabe

how about just try check calling and tell us yourself how it works out

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it doesnt :)

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even if we do bet out, if JJ wants to take this pot away from us then it can. if you get raised on the flop here after betting (which JJ can do) then how confident are you in your KK? you have asked a question of your opponent, do you have the ace (or can you beat the ace) and they have answered that they can. so you fold your KK. the problem is, they could have almost anything here, but you have to give them credit for a better hand.
worse case scenario is when its a small A, then the opp might just call your flop bet. now what do you do on the turn. you know that most of the time the only hand that calls your bet here is the ace. do you bet the turn again hoping that they can lay down their weak ace? if not, then you check and your opponent can now bet with any two cards and expect you to fold a good amount of the time.

the problem as i see it is, if you bet and face any sort of resistance at all (which includes a call) then you have to slow down and assume you are beaten. you have taken away the opportunity for worse hands to bet at this pot by taking the lead. now you are much more likely to be facing a better hand than yours. but worse, you are building the pot for your opponent.

in summary, the fact that (most of the time) only an ace is going to put more money in the pot if you bet makes this a losing play. not only are you losing what you have put into the pot, you are also losing what a lesser hand would have put in the pot had you allowed it to.

i just realized that this is one of those situations where a short stack would have a much easier time, because a short stack could bet at the ace and expect a much wider range to call/raise than a full stack. especially in a blind battle.

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Thank you very much! This post opened up my thinking. Nice one![/code]

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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

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Originally Posted by gabe

how about just try check calling and tell us yourself how it works out

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it doesnt :)

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haha you are wrong

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Originally Posted by pgil

even if we do bet out, if JJ wants to take this pot away from us then it can. if you get raised on the flop here after betting (which JJ can do) then how confident are you in your KK? you have asked a question of your opponent, do you have the ace (or can you beat the ace) and they have answered that they can. so you fold your KK. the problem is, they could have almost anything here, but you have to give them credit for a better hand.
worse case scenario is when its a small A, then the opp might just call your flop bet. now what do you do on the turn. you know that most of the time the only hand that calls your bet here is the ace. do you bet the turn again hoping that they can lay down their weak ace? if not, then you check and your opponent can now bet with any two cards and expect you to fold a good amount of the time.

the problem as i see it is, if you bet and face any sort of resistance at all (which includes a call) then you have to slow down and assume you are beaten. you have taken away the opportunity for worse hands to bet at this pot by taking the lead. now you are much more likely to be facing a better hand than yours. but worse, you are building the pot for your opponent.

in summary, the fact that (most of the time) only an ace is going to put more money in the pot if you bet makes this a losing play. not only are you losing what you have put into the pot, you are also losing what a lesser hand would have put in the pot had you allowed it to.

i just realized that this is one of those situations where a short stack would have a much easier time, because a short stack could bet at the ace and expect a much wider range to call/raise than a full stack. especially in a blind battle.

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so we are ALMOST saying the same thing - If I get called or raised on the flop I am pretty much ready to lay it down - but at least if I made the bet, I would know, right? That is what im kinda getting at - If you can take the pot down on the flop, isn't that +EV? Seems like it to me - its not a min-raise preflop - there is a decent amount of $$ in the pot preflop - So if we can take it right then, shouldn't we? If I get played back I don't mind giving it up - Its the same scenario as if I have JJ and raise preflop, get cold called and any A,K or Q show up - Im ready to lay it down - BUT i would lead out if i'm first to act (and most likely fold if a reasonable bet is made when im in position) and then react from there

the 2nd bold I see this way - A lesser hand will take you check/calling as a sign of weakness or slowplaying (most often weak)- If your up against an aggro opponent here, he will surely bet when checked to on the turn (I would most likely check the turn there if my flop bet is called) with any hand that he thinks might be good - I see players raising me with JQs in the SB vs. BB - and at 25NL players overvalue hands - yes, they MIGHT have an ace on me which im willing to fold to when I have resistance...but when im playing weakly (check/calling) they are more likely to go aggro on me - When they get aggro, how do I know if im being overrun by a crap hand, or if they really have the best hand? so what i think im getting at is we really can't call much on the turn or river..and when we act weak, they are likely to go aggro with much worse hands than ours - In those cases, I don't want to call turn or river bets - I want to take down the pot on the flop...That isn't to say im married to my K's here, its just that players at 25NL will play KQ (preflop against an avg stealing type raise) like it's da nuts - If they are betting like they are good, i won't call turn/river bets - But if I lead out strong I am more likely to make those weaker hands lay down -

and lets say we are being bet into by JJ, QQ, 10,10 (they bet into me with an Ace on board if i act weak), we can't really call enough on the turn or river to win a big pot - So what I see is that check/calling doesn't tell us much about our opponents hand - Leading tells us everything - If he calls, I slow way down and am prepared to give it up - But at least they SHOULDNT be raising my flop bet with worse hands than what i have (if they do, they are crafty little devils)

in essence, I see a check/fold here much better than check/call - Just because the call is weak and the BB can keep betting into us with worse hands - This isn't a bad thing, IF the pot stays small - But think about the 25NL players - They act as if they are protecting a 10,10 kinda hand against your KQ preflop steal attempt - we can't call large turn or river bets, so I think leading here and being prepared to fold to resistance is a better plan....good lord this is nutty long :)

my guess is that if someone can change my mind, I'm going to improve by leaps and bounds - I get stubborn sometimes with things i've "learned" - help me change my belief - really :)

here's a tip. try what we said, and then call reasonable turn and river bets, and watch yourself make money.

it is +EV to bet on the flop. I occasionally do for the hell of it. but it is more +EV to check.