Make the Call? FD Big Pot Brewing

BB, Button, and Hero are pretty deep stacked. Button raise feels like a steal. I'm just defending with suited-K.
BB Stats: VPIP 33.9, PFR 24, 3B 6.55, AF 2.66

Preflop: My 3bet call is a little loose. But the BB's 3bet is pretty strong. I call thinking that *if*I hit, we're getting it all in. I was also thinking that if I pair the K, that *could* be good.

Flop: That's a good size cbet, but there's still a lot of money behind. I have the backdoor wheel draw to add outs on the turn. I make another loose call. I don't want to shove because I feel like I'm behind right now (and will get called).

Turn: Nothing changed. BB bet 1/2 pot. I'm getting 3:1. I'm still thinking it's *worth it* to call if I hit. But to reduce my overall variance I decided to fold.

I know "tight is right," but it felt like a real decision to me. It's possible I was drawing against AQs or AJs and would have been stacked. It just didn't feel like that. I think it's more likely I'm drawing against an over pair. Am I just being a sticky fish? Any comments on turn call/fold? Also, "fold to button bet," and "fold to 3bet," are appropriate responses...

Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
Hero (SB): $3.59
BB: $3.93
UTG: $1.08
CO: $1.94
BTN: $2.84
Hero posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K:spade: 5:spade:
fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.06, Hero calls $0.05, BB raises to $0.22, fold, Hero calls $0.16

Flop: ($0.50, 2 players) 3:spade: 2:spade: T:heart:
Hero checks, BB bets $0.32, Hero calls $0.32

Turn: ($1.14, 2 players) T:diamond:
Hero checks, BB bets $0.58, fold
BB wins $1.09

fold pre twice
call turn

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Originally Posted by IslandAK

... the BB's 3bet is pretty strong.... I... if I pair the K, that *could* be good....

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logic flaw

If I feel like the BTN is trying to steal, I always reraise it. Not sure if that's a flaw in my game or not, but it doesn't feel right to just call when I feel like hes trying it out with me.

As played after that first call I can't justify a second call of a 10bb raise with K5 (suited or not).

Turn = call for me

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Originally Posted by daven

fold pre twice
call turn

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if your in BB then flatting might be ok, but SB?? nooo...just no. this is a 3bet or fold kind of hand.

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Originally Posted by acg123

if your in BB then flatting might be ok, but SB?? nooo...just no. this is a 3bet or fold kind of hand.

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in a vacuum why would you want to 3bet this hand at a stake where villains typically don't fold. you are setting yourself up to be in a horrible RIO situation drawing o second best flushs , and when you have nut flush draw A on the board is going to be a scare card to villains and will hit there 3bet continuing range pretty hard, and if you do flop the nut flush you are unlikely to get paid.. About the only thing its got in its favour as a 3bet bluff is that its easy to dump to a 4bet but that same principle should apply making it easy to dump to a 3bet.

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Originally Posted by Keith

in a vacuum why would you want to 3bet this hand at a stake where villains typically don't fold. you are setting yourself up to be in a horrible RIO situation drawing o second best flushs , and when you have nut flush draw A on the board is going to be a scare card to villains and will hit there 3bet continuing range pretty hard, and if you do flop the nut flush you are unlikely to get paid.. About the only thing its got in its favour as a 3bet bluff is that its easy to dump to a 4bet but that same principle should apply making it easy to dump to a 3bet.

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yes its a bluff, you talk about the times we hit the board, what about the other 60-70% of the time we miss?

I guess it doesn't matter, what im trying to say is 3betting is better than flat calling. you have control which is key at the micros. why give the OP advice on how to play a hand that he has misplayed from the beginning? unless BTN is opening 100% flatting is not +EV and based on OP's statement "My 3bet call is a little loose. But the BB's 3bet is pretty strong" then he knows hes behind but gambled anyway and is looking for any reason to continue with a weak hand vs. a strong range. encouraging this type of thinking is not good imo.

"I call thinking that *if*I hit, we're getting it all in."
hit what? the nuts? lol this type of thinking will make you a marginal losing player. I know ive been there when I first started playing. what you should be thinking, is what flop textures will villain fold to a raise? or something that has an "out" you need a plan. calling to hit and "GII" is not a plan.

I was also thinking that if I pair the K, that *could* be good.
what hands are going to pay you off on a K high board?
please just don't call for the sake of it, like I said have a plan, a real plan that explores all your options, I would rather cold 4bet pre after the squeeze then flat and x/c. at least then there are 2 ways to win, your only leaving yourself 1 real "out". make the nuts or TP+ which the only time your going to get action on a TP board is when he has you crushed.

the reason im being blunt is explaining how to play this hand the way you played it will only cause you many ,many headaches and put you in tough spots later on. if you fix it now and learn about ranges, equity and manipulation of both of those then you will become a much better player much faster. don't focus on spots like this, you made a mistake so what? I make mistakes everytime I sit to play poker. learn from it and please don't flat unless you have a plan to steal postflop. ( which to do that you have to put villain on a range, which makes you think about your equity vs that range, and how much of that range will fold to x/r OTF (manipulation)) x/r was just an example. I hope im not perceived as being out of line here, I just wish when I was first starting someone would of told me just like that. it would of saved me many headaches, and monies too. lol

much easier to fix it now by folding pre rather than calling either of the raises , and getting into a bloated pot against villains who generally don't fold enough and then playing the rest of the hand OOP. we can be in the shit when we hit the flop and certainly gonna be crushed by a 3bet calling range when we miss the flop on this action. All the more reason to just fold pre. 3betting may be better than flat calling ......but folding is better than 3betting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

fold pre twice

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It's really this.

K5s is too weak for a 3-bet OOP, even from the SB. How wide is your 3-bet range to include weak KXs?
This is something to consider in 4-handed play, not 6-handed.

The first call was bad, a 3-bet would be preferable, but a 3-bet is bad, too, so fold.
The second call is just burning money for reasons already stated ITT.

OTT: Villain is unlikely to hold 22 or 33, so the T pairing the board means your flush loses to quads and the RIO on ATss. You have 9, maybe 8 outs, could lose with A:s:, Q:s: or J:s: on the river when opponents {AT, QT, JT} hands catch a boat. This leaves ~5:1 against you not counting the RIO on boat over flush. You have to call 2:1 now with only 2.5 behind. You do not have the ESS to draw here. You can only achieve 4.5:1 on this bet if you call, hit OTR and shove.

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Originally Posted by Keith

{spam link}3betting may be better than flat calling ......but folding is better than 3betting.

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Agreed.

If we have fold equity pre, I would 3b. If not, I would fold.

As played, definitely fold to the 3b. You're OOP, this isn't "a little loose", this is "very loose". In position, the call would still be "pretty loose".

As played, fold turn. On this particular turn card (Tx), even if turn goes check/check, I would be hesitant to fire a bluff on the river. His turn check-back range has a ton of calling hands that are pot controlling.

Wow! Thank you for all of the insight. This particular dummy play has been removed my game.

I appreciate everyone's responses. And I know the answer:

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fold pre twice

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I tried to answer a few posts below.

Quote:

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If we have fold equity pre, I would 3b. If not, I would fold.

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Got it.

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Originally Posted by keith

in a vacuum why would you want to 3bet this hand at a stake where villains typically don't fold. you are setting yourself up to be in a horrible RIO situation ...About the only thing its got in its favour as a 3bet bluff is that its easy to dump to a 4bet but that same principle should apply making it easy to dump to a 3bet.

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Makes sense.

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Originally Posted by acg123

he knows hes behind but gambled anyway and is

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Yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by acg123

looking for any reason to continue with a weak hand vs. a strong range

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No. I was asking to see if my fold was incorrect given the hand. I folded, finally, as you can see in the hh. If I was looking for a reason to call I would have. I felt like it wasn't automatic, either way.

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Originally Posted by acg123

"I call thinking that *if*I hit, we're getting it all in."
hit what? the nuts? lol this type of thinking will make you a marginal losing player.

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I hear you. I meant the flush, two pair, trips, boat, quads. Not defending myself, just answering the question.

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Originally Posted by acg123

I was also thinking that if I pair the K, that *could* be good.
what hands are going to pay you off on a K high board?

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Most hands wouldn't have "paid me" big. I think I get money from 2nd pair and pocket pairs a lot of the time. I see how this is a dumb play.

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Originally Posted by acg123

the reason im being blunt is explaining how to play this hand the way you played it will only cause you many ,many headaches and put you in tough spots later on. if you fix it now and learn about

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I have no issue (none) with bluntness.

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Originally Posted by acg123

ranges, equity and manipulation of both of those then you will become a much better player much faster.

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I'm still learning this. Never really did the first time around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by acg123

...please don't flat unless you have a plan to steal postflop. ( which to do that you have to put villain on a range, which makes you think about your equity vs that range, and how much of that range will fold to x/r OTF (manipulation))

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There is basically no stealing this particular hand. I *will* pay attention to what you wrote here.

3b or fold pre. Either is fine. Calling is bad, calling again is fucking awful.

As played I'm c/r flop, and I'm giving up on turn because the turn is nearly as bad as hero's line pre flop.