Ideal VPIP...

[metalface]

What is the ideal VPIP, PFR and FAF at $25NL for a TAA?
What about a SLAA?

I'm currently 18.75/8.01/4.14. I guess the 4.14 makes me a passive player?
Also, where can I find a good rating template for my PT?

[will641]

i ran about 24/18/3.5 and I consider myself fairly aggressive, so you are definitely not passive

[IowaSkinsFan]

get your pfr up a lot.

[bode]

pfr should be ATLEAST 1/2 of your vpip, 3/4 would be good to shoot for. And AF of 4 is definitly not passive.

[Chopper]

i agree. you are not passive. and, yes, if you run at 18, you need to have a pfr over 10...especially at 6max.

templates? i assume you mean to auto-rate the others?

if so. i say, use yourself. you can picture what you would do in a given situation. you know if you bet draws. if you lead with sets while oop. use yourself as your baseline....once you have established where you naturally play.

if its 18/12/4...then you need to set "semi-loose" to >18%. and tight to <18%. set your pf aggression to greater than or less than 12%. and i wouldnt necessarily set post flop to 4...but maybe 2.5-3. that would tell you if someone is MORE aggressive than you, or playing tighter ranges than you.

and that is an easy place to start from, imo, when learning to read hands. ask yourself, "this guy is tighter than i am....that means his range is about XX here...so, what kinds of hands would that bet mean?"

[Dislexsik]

pfr should be ATLEAST 1/2 of your vpip, 3/4 would be good to shoot for. And AF of 4 is definitly not passive.

pfr should be more then atleast 1/2
Make it more 4/6 or 5/6

[JL]

pfr should be ATLEAST 1/2 of your vpip, 3/4 would be good to shoot for. And AF of 4 is definitly not passive.

pfr should be more then atleast 1/2
Make it more 4/6 or 5/6

Not necessarily. You can run 20/10 at $25NL and kill the game.

At this limit it is better to limp behind with low PPs and SCs, rather than trying to raise and isolate the limpers and getting called by 1 or 2 people, then firing out a cbet.
IMO, that is a huge leak at this limit.
On the other hand, I dont think you should be limping behind with weak face cards like KQ, KJ, QJ. These types of hands you really want to isolate with. They play horribly in multiway pots compared with low PPs and SCs.

However, I do agree that your PFR% should be higher. One way to get it higher is to look at your position stats and see if your PFR% and VPIP are identical from UTG. If not, then stop open limping!

[sauce123]

PF stats dont matter as much as ppl think they do

[JL]

PF stats dont matter as much as ppl think they do

True, just look at Cocco_Bill's.

[Chopper]

PF stats dont matter as much as ppl think they do

at 25NL, where people are still mastering fundamentals, i completely disagree that they dont matter. you can beat most opponents through 50NL, imo, with a great pf game. post flop helps, its actually where the real money is, but dont disregard pf numbers...in the beginning of a career.

JL, when you say "hide behind limpers," i agree. do this with all sorts of good, deceptive multiway hands and look for huge flops. but, dont open-limp these holdings (pp's and sc's). open them with your normal raise, but in later positions (CO+). and, when you opened for a raise, cbet them if the pot is HU.

[sauce123]

chopper- i think ur missing the fact that "good" 2p2ish preflop stats r good for beginner's because they cause u to make less mistakes postflop and induce more in your opponents. there is also the fundamental math involved no question, but unless we are seeing any freakish outliers like 40/3 or 60/35 i think u can win with a wide range of preflop stats.

ok, i'll bite the bullet, i think optimal preflop stats for a 6 handed table r btw 22/18 and 27/22 or so in the vast majority of game conditions.

[Chopper]

i agree that "ideal" has a wide range. i would think below 15 and 7ish or above 30 and 20ish are getting outside "ideal." anything in between there can play at a very high win rate...so long as there is balance.

i could never state an ideal number...its too specific. i think you may be thinking i am being to narrow (technical/specific). and i was probably thinking you were being too wide (conceptual/vague).

but, i bet we are in better alignment in this particular case than we think.

[JL]

JL, when you say "hide behind limpers," i agree. do this with all sorts of good, deceptive multiway hands and look for huge flops. but, dont open-limp these holdings (pp's and sc's). open them with your normal raise, but in later positions (CO+). and, when you opened for a raise, cbet them if the pot is HU.

Yeah, sorry if I wasnt clear earlier, but what you said is what I meant to say.
I always raise my low PPs and SCs if I am first in.
However, at $25NL (or any loose passive type of game—$25NL on stars is like $100NL on Ongame) it's better to limp behind other limpers with these hands.
I also agree that when it is HU, it is best to cbet most of the time.

The big problem I have found is that when there are one or two limpers and I raise it on the btn to 6xBB with 44 and I get called by a loose-passive who will call down with any pair.
It is a huge leak to be cbetting against this type of opponent too often.
Most of the players I play against are these type of passive players, and I was just spewing way too many chips away by c-betting way too often.

My winrate has drastically improved since I stopped this.

Now I just limp behind with these hands instead of isolating pre-flop, unless the table is playing tighter than normal, then I open up a lot more.

[BigPapi]

ok, I raise say 44 in MP (to 1$), let's say button (stack 13,5$) reraises to 3,5$. what should be our standard play? I think reraise allin to put pressure on, because calling for set value is not good here. Is this (usually) the right move?

and what if it's BB who reraises? And if others are involved in the pot, say you're in early position and get 2 callers before someone reraises?

edit: let's assume the reraiser is not a total nit who hasn't done it before in the session

[badgers]

ok, I raise say 44 in MP (to 1$), let's say button (stack 13,5$) reraises to 3,5$. what should be our standard play? I think reraise allin to put pressure on, because calling for set value is not good here. Is this (usually) the right move?

and what if it's BB who reraises? And if others are involved in the pot, say you're in early position and get 2 callers before someone reraises?

edit: let's assume the reraiser is not a total nit who hasn't done it before in the session

Fooooolllllllddddddd!!!

[BigPapi]

Ok, that's what I've been doing (folding)... but often when someone else calls it's like AK (reraiser) vs. AJ (caller) or something. So I was wondering if it would be a bad move against shorties.

anyway I usually assume they have JJ+/AQ+ so I'm at best a coinflip. Should that also be my range to shove over? or just AA/KK (50nl). Against shorties when I'm sure it's going to be headsup I have a bit wider range 88+ AQ+.

[Renton]

if you are a god of postflop then you should play every hand thats profitable for you, which would be something like 30/24.

Just analyze every hand you play from a profitability standpoint, and only play the +ev ones. Its so simple!

[minSim]

Some hands will be profitable against one player, but not against the other though.

[ChrisTheFish]

AGhhh i'm a nit @ 22/15

[Cocco_Bill]

PF stats dont matter as much as ppl think they do

True, just look at Cocco_Bill's.

Well, my PF stats are gradually getting more 'normal'. Over the last 2 months I've been playing about 21/13/1.8 for 6-max. Still too passive and clearly not nearly optimal. I am working on it though.

[biondino]

Papi, the thing with the example you gave is it's a bit false. 44 is a favourite against AK so yes, if you KNOW he's got AK a push is the right move. Problem is, a shortie is likely to make this move with as much as AT+ and any pocket pair, and while you're flipping with the unpaired cards, 44 is way behind almost every pair, and that's what makes it a fold.

If you had 99, what would you do?

[BigPapi]

against shorties my calling range is usually 88+/AQ+. so 99 would usually be a call/shove, unless he's throwing away every hand. But when I see him move allin twice before in 15 minutes I think it's the right move

Against shorties I think it might be marginal maybe, but at least good for image in hands against bigger stacks.

I was just wondering if my 88+ range could be lower as well or it's just best to keep it like this (as I've assumed before)

edit: or maybe up it to TT/JJ+

[bode]

against shorties my calling range is usually 88+/AQ+. so 99 would usually be a call/shove, unless he's throwing away every hand. But when I see him move allin twice before in 15 minutes I think it's the right move

Against shorties I think it might be marginal maybe, but at least good for image in hands against bigger stacks.

I was just wondering if my 88+ range could be lower as well or it's just best to keep it like this (as I've assumed before)

edit: or maybe up it to TT/JJ+

its hard to come up with a generic answer, but against shorties (20bbs and less) 88+/AQ+ is probly a good range to call with IF they have been pushing fairly frequently.

[IowaSkinsFan]

if you are a god of postflop then you should play every hand thats profitable for you

You play a lot more hands that are -EV but still good to play then you may think.

[BigPapi]

ok thanks. as always it's situational, but in general a wider range probably wouldn't add much

[Chopper]

wow. lots of good comments past 10-12 or so.

PAPI, 44 to a RR? fold fast w/o a real read...at 25NL. not a lot of light 3betting, unless at stars is my experience. yes, its junk or unpaired stuff a lot, but its still a fold w/o a read.

RENTON, i try to stick to my "profitable range" like crazy. logically, it makes so much sense. but, by playing the top-end of our unprofitable cards, we can increase our numbers for those PTing us...or make us appear a bit more loose than we really are, thus, buying us a little more action for our profitable range. the dissenting opinion will say that the players at low/mid stakes arent really paying much attention anyway, so this idea is moot.

BIONDINO, i agree whole-heartedly with the 44 v AK comment. i dispise small pairs w/o "set odds." sure, they are flipping with most holdings, but they are also so easily dominated by more and more pairs the farther down you drop towards the duckies. personally, i set hunt <55, even when opening on passive tables. aggro tables, i continue to raise them up, if i am first in.

BACK TO PAPI, yes, opening up wont do too much against shorties. i like bode's 88+, if you see hes doing a lot of pushing. but, JJ+ otherwise. but, i will call with a lot else and take a flop...if i wasnt 3bet pf.