Quality problem

[BorisTheSpider]

Now this is my kind of problem, and one I'd like to have more often: How to extract value from flopped quads.

CO ($33.54)
Button ($15.27)
SB ($24.23)
Hero (BB) ($28.84)
UTG ($25.35)
MP ($24.41)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 5
1 fold, MP bets $0.75, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 5, 5, 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $1.14, Hero calls $1.14

Turn: ($3.88) 4 (2 players)

Hero ????

Villain is typical TAG, not seen enough hands to have a better read than that yet, but he doesn't seem unduly loose, nor aggressive, nor passive, nor much of anything other than typical. If anything maybe a _little_ loose. This was the first pot I got in with him.

My table image is somewhat aggressive, but not maniac. I had been stealing a lot of his blinds, 3betting a fair bit, but again neither of us had seen that much of each other, so he probably didn't have a particular impression of me yet.

Do you check/call, check/raise or lead the turn? Why?

[rpm]

i fold preflop without good reads that will allow me to navigate postflop. on the flop i can see either C/C or C/R and which i take depends entirely upon how i think villain will perceive it. things like our image, our recent history with villain/at the table, whether he's recently lost any big pots or been sucked out on, how many tables he's playing, how capable of hand-reading he is (because most regs' ranges here in your spot flop a flush draw or mid-strength overpair at best) and whether i think he is capable of getting aggressive when/if he thinks he has a read.

another important thing is what we expect him to do with flush draws when check/raised. basically, it's a huge "it depends"

[supa]

Understanding when to fold small pps when we're getting clear odds to setmine is completely elusive to me. But I remember someone (Oscar I think) saying a long time ago that tags won't stack off to a set often enough to make it profitable. So maybe when our sole read is 'tag' then that's a good place to start folding these hands. Thoughts anybody?

That said, would a tag usually perceive a flop c/r as a bluff in this spot? Making it an excellent spot to c/r for value?

*edit* I guess that depends on villains image of us.

[rpm]

That said, would a tag usually perceive a flop c/r as a bluff in this spot? Making it an excellent spot to c/r for value?

that's where figuring out which level they are on becomes important. also, is he some multitabling robot tag or is he a tag capable of handreading and making a move?. these kind of spots get pretty interesting (and high variance) once you get some history with a particular villain. particularly if there's blood.

[bikes]

c/c
c/rai

[aka_red]

it has nothing to do with the fact that you have quads. it has more to do with the fact that you don't know what type of range you're trying to extract value from and the fact that you OMG have quads and you're probably freaking out that you've got the nuts. this isn't any different than how you would extract value from a hand lesser than quads. i highly suggest you take the time to reevaluate how you play all hands in this spot and it shouldn't be drastically different between 55, 56, A5, and AA here. you need to get past what cards you have and consider what cards your opponent has and think critically about what you're going to do with this information.

[Robb]

Understanding when to fold small pps when we're getting clear odds to setmine is completely elusive to me. But I remember someone (Oscar I think) saying a long time ago that tags won't stack off to a set often enough to make it profitable. So maybe when our sole read is 'tag' then that's a good place to start folding these hands. Thoughts anybody?

Hmm...just $.50 to call w/ ~$23.50 behind, so 47:1 odds? I'm calling w/ 55 here, even oop. If he's so TAGGY he'll fold to pressure when he has an overpair, we can play 55 profitably postflop (or break-even, at least, oop) even when we don't flop the set or better. I think small pp's are a group of hands we can profitably include in our range in this spot, unless 25NL has changed dramatically in recent times.

[BorisTheSpider]

it has nothing to do with the fact that you have quads. it has more to do with the fact that you don't know what type of range you're trying to extract value from and the fact that you OMG have quads and you're probably freaking out that you've got the nuts. this isn't any different than how you would extract value from a hand lesser than quads. i highly suggest you take the time to reevaluate how you play all hands in this spot and it shouldn't be drastically different between 55, 56, A5, and AA here. you need to get past what cards you have and consider what cards your opponent has and think critically about what you're going to do with this information.

I agree in part, but on the other hand it's not quite the same - we have the flop crippled. Even A55 or K55 is not going to be a flop most villains will get it in on with AK for example if facing a lot of action, and an overpair will often play carefully when the board is paired. It's like a monotone flop for an overpair or TPTK in that regard, it tends to kill the action and slow everybody down.

It's also a little different than other nutted hands in that we don't have to worry about getting drawn out on, so whereas I'd never slowplay a set on anything other than a bone-dry board, something like this that is beyond getting drawn out on might warrant playing much more slowly to give him a chance to improve.

Regardless, if he doesn't have a hand, we're not getting any value.

[aka_red]

you have poor reading comprehension.

[Icanhastreebet]

Hmm...just $.50 to call w/ ~$23.50 behind, so 47:1 odds? I'm calling w/ 55 here, even oop. If he's so TAGGY he'll fold to pressure when he has an overpair, we can play 55 profitably postflop (or break-even, at least, oop) even when we don't flop the set or better. I think small pp's are a group of hands we can profitably include in our range in this spot, unless 25NL has changed dramatically in recent times.

Just to extend from this. If he is super tight then setmining or donk bluffing turn/rivers when he Xs back is going to be fine. If he is really loose then our 55 is going to be doing pretty well in the first place and if we can navigate well postflop when we don't flop a set then it should still be a fine cold call. The more loose and aggro the villain though the more difficult it becomes to play small pairs OOP obviously. I'd expect calling this hand OOP for a lot you though to be a losing play even at 25NL the looser the villain becomes.

[Fnord]

If they're not calling down in these spots, then bluff them more often. Then run your bluff line for value and make figuring out if you have a hand or not their problem.

When I have a lock like this, sometimes I run passive line (particularly against an opponent who is betting big, often and light.) But my default is to just blast away and sometimes it's pretty amusing to see what called down or played back at me.

Then again, I'm a pretty big spewtard and ruthless when I find someone who will let me pick on them.

[Robb]

I'm a pretty big spewtard and ruthless when I find someone who will let me pick on them.

Hey, fnord, glad to see you're still on FTR - it's good that some things, including your approach to pokerz, never change.

[BorisTheSpider]

If they're not calling down in these spots, then bluff them more often. Then run your bluff line for value and make figuring out if you have a hand or not their problem.

When I have a lock like this, sometimes I run passive line (particularly against an opponent who is betting big, often and light.) But my default is to just blast away and sometimes it's pretty amusing to see what called down or played back at me.

Then again, I'm a pretty big spewtard and ruthless when I find someone who will let me pick on them.

Thanks. This is just the lesson to learn from this.