What does this guy have?

[Zangief]

Here is a hand I played particularly poorly.

$.25/$.50 NL
I have $24.50, my opponent has me covered.

One early position limper, I limp from middle position with :Ac::Td:, the SB completes, and the BB checks.

Pot: $2.

Flop: :Ah:

SB bets $2. BB folds, early position limper folds. I raise to $6.

SB reraises to $10. I call.

Pot: $22.

Turn:

SB checks, I check.

River: :Tc:

SB bets $6, I raise all-in for $14, SB calls.

Final Pot: $50.

(I'm not looking for a critique here, I know I played it horribly. This is a problem for you guys.)

What does my opponent have?

[Jay67s]

As4x or As7x possible 44 and your toast

[rdqlus]

SB checked his fullhouse on the turn?

I've had that happen a few times. I'll usually end up calling their value bet on the river. It was worse for you since you made top 2 pair on the river.

Results?

mj

[drmcboy]

AJ/AQ, not spades

[face]

I'm thinking A7 and you rivered him. When you just called the flop reraise (which I think you shouldn't have), there is no way I'm going to check to you with a full house because I know you'll check behind. I guess if he had A4 he might have been so happy to make the full house on the turn that he wanted to try to induce a bluff with your TP decent kicker. There is no way he would play AK, AQ, or AJ this way, nor any ace rag that didn't make at least two pair. Most to least likely: A7, A4, 77, 44. By the way, did you put him on anything during the hand? What was the point of your allin?

[drmcboy]

There is no way he would play AK, AQ, or AJ this way

explain please. On the flop he reps the ace, re raises to make a draw hand pay more and to find out if you really like your hand, checks becauses in a limped pot there is a decent chance there is a 4 out and he's beat, also he may be thinking he's beat by A4 A7. The 10 means no draws got there and you'd think a set or two pair bets the turn to prevent a cheap draw. So on the end he figures he is best and bets out.

[Zangief]

I'm thinking A7 and you rivered him. When you just called the flop reraise (which I think you shouldn't have), there is no way I'm going to check to you with a full house because I know you'll check behind. I guess if he had A4 he might have been so happy to make the full house on the turn that he wanted to try to induce a bluff with your TP decent kicker. There is no way he would play AK, AQ, or AJ this way, nor any ace rag that didn't make at least two pair. Most to least likely: A7, A4, 77, 44. By the way, did you put him on anything during the hand? What was the point of your allin?

I was hoping not to have to explain myself, but I will.

When he reraised me, I decided he must have had one of the following:

AJ or AT, because he was a solid player and this is the only Ax I thought he would call preflop with then rereraise on the flop based on the kicker;
A7, A4, 47, 77, 44, or the longshot slowplayed AA.

Basically, I played it irrationally and didn't pay attention to the fact that 5/7 of those hands made a boat on the turn. I didn't want to admit this during he hand, but I realized this in thinking about the hand afterwards. A reraise based on a J kicker is very unlikely. He must have had 2 pair or better.

I raised on the flop to make sure he wasn't just trying to buy the pot or semibluff his flush draw. I should have folded when he reraised on the flop.

He ended up holding and enjoyed taking my stupid river all-in money.

[Greedo017]

tough. i can't even tell if you won or not. obviously, whatever it is is bad though. If you won, i'm thinking like 23o or something. if you lost, 24o, or something retarded.

[Zangief]

tough. i can't even tell if you won or not. obviously, whatever it is is bad though. If you won, i'm thinking like 23o. if you lost, 24o.

I got my post in before yours. Check above.

[Greedo017]

damn! i was about to say, he's gotta have 47 this is FTR it would only be too perfect, but then i was like noo way, he wouldn't have 47. damn i wish i was less indecisive.

[dalecooper]

I was thinking 74, A4, A7, or pocket 7s. His re-raise on the flop is dangerous... he's got to have two pair or a set to come back at you like that, unless he's crazy. When he checks the turn/bets out on the river, that's another warning sign. That's a call or fold situation (no raise), because so many players auto-check as soon as they get a monster hand like a boat. The need to slowplay runs deep. When you checked behind on the turn, he bet out on the river because he felt he had to get some money on the hand & couldn't rely on you to do it for him.

[face]

There is no way he would play AK, AQ, or AJ this way

explain please.

Sb completes

Although he could just limp with two early limpers with a high ace, it would be pretty damn weak. Maybe AJ, but I doubt he would just complete -- not raise to take it down or isolate against Zangief -- with AK or AQ.

[drmcboy]

I'd use caution assuming people always raise with AJ and AQ.

[Zangief]

I'd use caution assuming people always raise with AJ and AQ.

Still, wouldn't you agree that most people would not reraise on this flop with AQ/AJ?

[dalecooper]

I'd use caution assuming people always raise with AJ and AQ.

Still, wouldn't you agree that most people would not reraise on this flop with AQ/AJ?

Agreed - probably just call your raise. A slim margin of players on either side of the tight/loose spectrum might just fold the hand (if tight) or re-raise (if loose or highly aggro)... the majority of players would just call.

[dsaxton]

You have to put him on at least two pair once he reraises, and when he checks he's probably slow-playing a full house. The pairing of the bottom rank on the turn shouldn't worry any two pair on the flop, and so his check doesn't really make any sense except as a slow-play.

[Zangief]

I'd use caution assuming people always raise with AJ and AQ.

Still, wouldn't you agree that most people would not reraise on this flop with AQ/AJ?

Agreed - probably just call your raise. A slim margin of players on either side of the tight/loose spectrum might just fold the hand (if tight) or re-raise (if loose or highly aggro)... the majority of players would just call.

Ha - and even if they were the loose/aggro kind: AQ or AJ still has me beat. Ugh. Bad play.

[dalecooper]

AQ or AJ still has me beat. Ugh. Bad play.

Well, I wasn't going to make a big point of it, since you said not to... but yeah. You mishandled a few things here even before the ill-advised river raise. I'm not crazy about the pre-flop limp (or even playing ATo from middle position at all - but if you're going to play it, raise it). Then you definitely should have folded the flop to his re-raise. But ignoring all that, just calling on the river is probably your best play. I understand how you got to that point, and he's definitely putting out the "I have you beat" value bet, but at that point the pot is large enough to warrant simply calling and hoping. Raising, not so much.

[Zangief]

AQ or AJ still has me beat. Ugh. Bad play.

Well, I wasn't going to make a big point of it, since you said not to... but yeah. You mishandled a few things here even before the ill-advised river raise. I'm not crazy about the pre-flop limp (or even playing ATo from middle position at all - but if you're going to play it, raise it). Then you definitely should have folded the flop to his re-raise. But ignoring all that, just calling on the river is probably your best play. I understand how you got to that point, and he's definitely putting out the "I have you beat" value bet, but at that point the pot is large enough to warrant simply calling and hoping. Raising, not so much.

So you would normally fold ATo from middle position?

I'm starting to really dislike ATs (and AJs), too. You want to raise to get the crap out, but you can't raise from middle position with them because most people who call you have you beat or dominated. If an A falls on the flop, you probably have kicker problems. If a T falls, there are many overpairs. You really want miracle flops: ATx, TTx, (not AAx because of kicker,) Txx with 2 of your suit, xxx with all 3 your suit, or KQJ (especially with 2 of your suit).

Basically, it's just a drawing hand, like 87s. But the high cards make it more dangerous because it easier to make a second-best hand that you go to a showdown with.

[dalecooper]

For exactly the reasons you mention, I usually fold AT from early or middle position. From late position (or maybe middle position at a very passive table) I will raise with it, a standard raise - 3xBB or whatever. AJ I am slightly more inclined to raise from middle position regardless of the table, but I hate that hand in early position - doesn't seem good enough to open with & so many yet to act. Sometimes I will limp AJ from early position and see what comes about. If someone else raises, I'll guage the player and size of the raise, and see if I feel like calling or folding. A lot of times at the tables I play, you can just limp in if you feel like it (as happened to you here) - but that can lead to its own kind of trouble. I'm very sensitive to making a pair of aces with these hands, and if someone else really comes alive I'm not going to hang in there betting like mad. The kicker is not that good to make it worth risking my stack. Also, at a very aggressive table where every hand is getting raised before the flop, I probably wouldn't even play AJo from early position. AJs I'd limp in and treat kind of like suited connectors.

- All of this assumes full ring, btw. The rules change for smaller games. AJ and AT aren't great hands in a 10 man game, unless you're in late position with an unraised pot. Then, fire away.

[JeffreyGB]

So you would normally fold ATo from middle position?

Depending on the table, I'll either fold or limp with AJ/AT in EP or MP. Raising is usually reserved for LP. The reason (to me) is that limping actually gives more information. Yes, it allows random hands to take a pot away from you like here, but it also lets you see cheaply if someone has you beat preflop. Most people are willing to just call a 4xBB bet with AK/AQ, however if they are in a pot with a few limpers, they will put out a raise. Just my .02.

[Zangief]

So you would normally fold ATo from middle position?

Depending on the table, I'll either fold or limp with AJ/AT in EP or MP. Raising is usually reserved for LP. The reason (to me) is that limping actually gives more information. Yes, it allows random hands to take a pot away from you like here, but it also lets you see cheaply if someone has you beat preflop. Most people are willing to just call a 4xBB bet with AK/AQ, however if they are in a pot with a few limpers, they will put out a raise. Just my .02.

I hate raising with ATs from the button and getting called by AK in the BB. It causes a lot of trouble. It's difficult to give them credit for a hand.

[dalecooper]

That's true - you have to be really careful. If they show any strength (playing back at you, betting before you, even just calling) and there are no clear draws on the board that would warrant them staying involved in the hand, you might just want to let it go.