The Spoon Experiment

[spoonitnow]

So what would happen if a decent winner at 100nl and 200nl went back and grinded it out multi-tabling from 2nl up?

After having almost 2 weeks off due to moving and not having an Internet connection, it's gotten pretty hard to grind on a regular basis, so I need some motivation.

So I'm going to try to run up a virtual $50 bankroll starting at 2nl full ring to whatever I can get it to by the end of the month. I'll "move up" when my virtual bankroll reaches 20 buy-ins for the next level. The idea for me is to get back in the habit of playing a shitload of hands each day, but maybe someone will learn something from this.

Now, starting tomorrow I'm going to be grinding only 2nl full ring until I get up to $100 for 5nl, $200 for 10nl, $500 for 25nl, and $1000 for 50nl if I get that far. Good luck me.

[fat-b]

tl;dr

[swiggidy]

I was expecting this to be about anal sex

[zxqv8]

make videos too

so i can learn to not suck

[fat-b]

id say suicide before NL50. Just get a stake. Or CCs like i do.

[sarbox68]

I was expecting this to be about anal sex

make videos too

so i can learn to not suck

Were these two posts supposed to go in that order...

[swiggidy]

I was expecting this to be about anal sex

make videos too

so i can learn to not suck

Were these two posts supposed to go in that order...

Tis better to give than recieve.

[d0zer]

Why would you do that to yourself?

See how long it takes you to grind a roll for 1kNL from 100NL (assuming you're still rolled for 100NL).

...Or d'u just wanna have some fun watching the microdonks throwing their money around like they're playing hot potato?

[spoonitnow]

Why would you do that to yourself?

See how long it takes you to grind a roll for 1kNL from 100NL (assuming you're still rolled for 100NL).

...Or d'u just wanna have some fun watching the microdonks throwing their money around like they're playing hot potato?

I'm rolled for yourmomNL but I'm a more conservative playa than that.

Also, if I ran from 2nl to say 50nl in a week or so, wouldn't that show that some people are spending too long at 10nl and below?

[d0zer]

Also, if I ran from 2nl to say 50nl in a week or so, wouldn't that show that some people are spending too long at 10nl and below?

Ah...tryin' to encourage more low stakers to move up so you can prey on us at higher limits...that makes sense

I'm workin' on it man!

But why would you perform an experiment you already know the results to? I mean barring some horrible shitstreak, you'll move up the ranks far faster than the vast majority of us playing the lower levels (other than veterans rebuilding rolls..).

Do the math on how many hours you're goin' to spend grinding for pennies. You were the one who convinced me that if I'm gunna have this game as a hobby, I might as well get paid for it -- & you get paid more the higher you go. You mentioned having trouble finding the motivation to grind 100NL anymore? Can't see how the micros would be any better...

(now I'm tryin' to keep yer shark ass outta my limits )

...but don't play my mom -- waaaaay too cheap fer realz

[dev]

Can't wait to see the HHs and blog posts :P

[swiggidy]

prob with your hypothesis is that you're already a winning player at the higher stake. So just because you can move up in one week doesn't mean someone new to the level can.

Also, didn't you just run from 10NL to 100NL super quick?

[andy-akb]

just make a prop bet with me on hours played or # of hands, that way you can get in hands at stakes that matter. even if you lose the bet, im sure the money youd make would outweigh the opportunity cost of playing at 2nl

[pgil]

I think I get where you're coming from. I don't play anywhere near as many hands/hours as you, but every now and then I lose the motivation. Luckily, about the time that I start to burn out actually having to almost think while playing, that is the time that Partypoker throws a small no deposit bonus at me. So I usually play 10-25NL on it and try to make as much as I can out of it, and hopefully clear it.

Then I immediately withdraw profits after the bonus clearing time has passed. Also gives me a nice little bit of money to throw around, as I don't withdraw all that often.

[Deanglow]

dude just do whatever option makes you the most money, not this shit.

IMO

[meeloche]

dude just do whatever option makes you the most money, not this shit.

IMO

[spoonitnow]

dude just do whatever option makes you the most money, not this shit.

IMO

It's +EV in long run imo.

[spoonitnow]

Also, if I ran from 2nl to say 50nl in a week or so, wouldn't that show that some people are spending too long at 10nl and below?

Ah...tryin' to encourage more low stakers to move up so you can prey on us at higher limits...that makes sense

I'm workin' on it man!

But why would you perform an experiment you already know the results to? I mean barring some horrible shitstreak, you'll move up the ranks far faster than the vast majority of us playing the lower levels (other than veterans rebuilding rolls..).

Do the math on how many hours you're goin' to spend grinding for pennies. You were the one who convinced me that if I'm gunna have this game as a hobby, I might as well get paid for it -- & you get paid more the higher you go. You mentioned having trouble finding the motivation to grind 100NL anymore? Can't see how the micros would be any better...

(now I'm tryin' to keep yer shark ass outta my limits )

...but don't play my mom -- waaaaay too cheap fer realz

I believe it's +EV for me in the long run (relatively short run, say the next 4 weeks at the most). DOUCY?

[XTR1000]

dude just do whatever option makes you the most money, not this shit.

IMO

It's +EV in long run imo.

its a waste of time imo.

still best of luck and let us know how if the 20BI rule is still playable.

[daven]

will follow with interest
not sure about the +EV, but have fun regardless!

[Hal]

Well for those of us who've worked our way through 2NL, 5NL, 10NL and are on 25NL (or higher) in the last year or so - we're prob all looking forward to seeing how you adapt.

How many tables are you going to be playing? 16+? or cutting down given the "easy" competition?

Given you're usually 17/15 or whatever - will you be nitting it up more as people play less attention to your ranges and your semi-bluffs etc get called more?

How do you think this experiment will effect your usual game? Is it just to be better about those players who've moved up recently?

Cheers, and look forward to your results

[jimmy44]

GL Spoon!

I can understand that it's boring winning, winning and winning a bit more and that you need a motivation

[spoonitnow]

dude just do whatever option makes you the most money, not this shit.

IMO

It's +EV in long run imo.

its a waste of time imo.

still best of luck and let us know how if the 20BI rule is still playable.

Nobody has figured out why it's +EV yet.

[spoonitnow]

Well for those of us who've worked our way through 2NL, 5NL, 10NL and are on 25NL (or higher) in the last year or so - we're prob all looking forward to seeing how you adapt.

How many tables are you going to be playing? 16+? or cutting down given the "easy" competition?

Given you're usually 17/15 or whatever - will you be nitting it up more as people play less attention to your ranges and your semi-bluffs etc get called more?

How do you think this experiment will effect your usual game? Is it just to be better about those players who've moved up recently?

Cheers, and look forward to your results

I'll be 16-tabling. I'm not sure how I'm going to run just yet in terms of stats, but we'll see.

The bold is key to why I think this is +EV.

[spoonitnow]

GL Spoon!

I can understand that it's boring winning, winning and winning a bit more and that you need a motivation

Motivation is important, but it's not really a lack of motivation that's hurting me currently.

[spoonitnow]

Update: March 25, 2008, 10:00 AM

2nl, 925 hands, +$6.93

lol i run soooooo bad. these guys are so horrible it's lol

[wesrman]

Suggestion: Mix in some 6 max.
You have stated in the past that you want to get into playing 6 max. So heres the perfect oppertunity to do it.
GLGL...

[spoonitnow]

Suggestion: Mix in some 6 max.
You have stated in the past that you want to get into playing 6 max. So heres the perfect oppertunity to do it.
GLGL...

Sry wes but that's a pretty gay idea.

[jimmy44]

GL Spoon!

I can understand that it's boring winning, winning and winning a bit more and that you need a motivation

Motivation is important, but it's not really a lack of motivation that's hurting me currently.

What is hurting you now then? Maybe playing from 2NL to 50NL you'll have different stats and you want to confuse the multi-tablers that have already stats on you?

[spoonitnow]

GL Spoon!

I can understand that it's boring winning, winning and winning a bit more and that you need a motivation

Motivation is important, but it's not really a lack of motivation that's hurting me currently.

What is hurting you now then? Maybe playing from 2NL to 50NL you'll have different stats and you want to confuse the multi-tablers that have already stats on you?

Stamina.

Unlike during sex, I've lost the ability to rape people for hours and hours at the poker table.

[wesrman]

Suggestion: Mix in some 6 max.
You have stated in the past that you want to get into playing 6 max. So heres the perfect oppertunity to do it.
GLGL...

Sry wes but that's a pretty gay idea.

Why is it gay???

[XTR1000]

Unlike during sex, I've lost the ability to rape people for hours and hours at the poker table.

at least reading this thread has become +ev


Seriously, I cant see why u believe this experiment to be +ev for yourself. I can see how it will increase your understanding and feeling for dynamics at micro tables and you will be able to give even better advice as ur already giving on 2NL and 5NL hands.
How many hrs or hands will u spend on this journey? Whats ur expected net loss compared to grinding 5hrs/day @ 4ptBB/100?
When ur lacking stamina at the tables, how many hrs will u spend at 2NL thru 50NL, when u could be studying the game, discussing hands, looking for new problems and solving them and does playing worse opponents really generate motivation/stamina? Dont u think the relative ease of competition will make things worse?


Does this all make up for picking up spots where your 100NL regs stopped advancing?

[d0zer]

I believe it's +EV for me in the long run (relatively short run, say the next 4 weeks at the most). DOUCY?

IDONOTCY, but I'm sure there's a method to your madness...

If I had to guess (and it seems that you want me to), I'd say you figure this will give you a new, fresh, outlook on the game, and renew your interest by forcing you to adapt to the fairly different playing styles of the microdonks.

Kind of reminds me of the chris ferguson full tilt experiment where it took him like 9 months playing freerolls to finally build up to $100.

[jyms]

What is hurting you now then? Maybe playing from 2NL to 50NL you'll have different stats and you want to confuse the multi-tablers that have already stats on you?

How the hell will a $100NL regular get different stats from Spoon playing $2NL?

[jimmy44]

What is hurting you now then? Maybe playing from 2NL to 50NL you'll have different stats and you want to confuse the multi-tablers that have already stats on you?

How the hell will a $100NL regular get different stats from Spoon playing $2NL?

He mentioned to move to 50NL didn't he?

[Jack Sawyer]

its +EV in the long run

[spoonitnow]

Update: March 25, 2008, 1:45 PM

2nl, 4098 hands, +$21.77

I'm running bad on all-ins but that's to be expected since I suck at life obv. Today is the oldest of my two brothers' 18th birthday, so I'm off for some pizza for a little bit.

[d0zer]

Holy piss you can play a lot of hands 82-tabling.

If you really wanna show us n00bs how fast we should be crawling out of the slums, you should play the avg number of tables that most of us do We don't have the advanced brainpower the spooney does to make difficult post-flop decisions at breakneck speeds while folding 10 other hands.

...I guess you could just multiply the amount of time it'll take you by 3 or 4 to get pretty close. ...failing of course to adjust for the presumably increased winrate from playing fewer tables.

[Warpe]

If you're looking to remotivate yourself, I think a holiday from poker would do you more good than this exercise.

[wesrman]

Isnt this gonna hurt your bill paying abilities???

[deacon_bluez]

I just wanna know who the little Japanese girl is in Spoon's posts. Is she from the Super Terrific Happy Hour?

[Deanglow]

I'm thinking of a better experiment: Play 100NL and see how fast you can move to 2000NL. That one is more motivating and profitable.

[Hawk]

If you really wanna show us n00bs how fast we should be crawling out of the slums, you should play the avg number of tables that most of us do We don't have the advanced brainpower the spooney does to make difficult post-flop decisions at breakneck speeds while folding 10 other hands.

# of hands should be all anyone needs for comparison. It doesn't matter if he played them in a day or a year.

[spoonitnow]

If you're looking to remotivate yourself, I think a holiday from poker would do you more good than this exercise.

The point is that I've already went almost 2 weeks without playing poker this month.

Isnt this gonna hurt your bill paying abilities???

Of course not. If taking a week off was going to do that, then what business would I have playing at all?

[spoonitnow]

If you really wanna show us n00bs how fast we should be crawling out of the slums, you should play the avg number of tables that most of us do We don't have the advanced brainpower the spooney does to make difficult post-flop decisions at breakneck speeds while folding 10 other hands.

# of hands should be all anyone needs for comparison. It doesn't matter if he played them in a day or a year.

Pretty much. There's much more to this than "showing noobs how fast they should be crawling out of the slums".

[spoonitnow]

I just wanna know who the little Japanese girl is in Spoon's posts. Is she from the Super Terrific Happy Hour?

I don't know, I stole the sig from someone at Subfighter.

I'm thinking of a better experiment: Play 100NL and see how fast you can move to 2000NL. That one is more motivating and profitable.

It depends on your goals for poker. Mine don't include pushing up to 2knl, so this wouldn't be particularly motivating for me.

[spoonitnow]

Okay so let's drop a bomb. I'm being 100% serious with this statement:

I don't particularly like poker, but it's better than alternatives for me at this point. For me, poker is a means to an end, and not much else.

Thoughts?

[frosst]

Okay so let's drop a bomb. I'm being 100% serious with this statement:

I don't particularly like poker, but it's better than alternatives for me at this point. For me, poker is a means to an end, and not much else.

Thoughts?

motivation is key for success. i understand where you're coming from. i quit college halfway through. i was studying to be a civil engineer. my gpa was a 3.2, i had a full ride but i decided thats not what i wanted to do for the rest of my life, so i walked away

[fat-b]

i dont likes pokers either. but i do play everyday

[d0zer]

I don't particularly like poker, but it's better than alternatives for me at this point. For me, poker is a means to an end, and not much else.

Thoughts?

Now I think you're even f'n crazier for playing below what you're rolled for.

Hmmm...You could shovel shit for $2/hr, or for $70/hr. Tough call.


Spoon, FFS -- cut out this cliffhanger BS and write the long, pedantic (but enlightening) post you inevitably will, explaining this seemingly time-waster of an experiment.

[spoonitnow]

I don't particularly like poker, but it's better than alternatives for me at this point. For me, poker is a means to an end, and not much else.

Thoughts?

Now I think you're even f'n crazier for playing below what you're rolled for.

Hmmm...You could shovel shit for $2/hr, or for $70/hr. Tough call.


Spoon, FFS -- cut out this cliffhanger BS and write the long, pedantic (but enlightening) post you inevitably will, explaining this seemingly time-waster of an experiment.

I could just be post-whoring.

[d0zer]

I could just be post-whoring.

I guess that makes more sense than my half-baked theory

[XTR1000]

I´m still missing the link between not liking poker and doing something less attractive than before

[Andrew]

Okay so let's drop a bomb. I'm being 100% serious with this statement:

I don't particularly like poker, but it's better than alternatives for me at this point. For me, poker is a means to an end, and not much else.

Thoughts?

You've actually said/hinted at this throughout your posts about yourself and I think this is something a lot of people miss.

You don't HAVE to love something to make money at it, this is seen time-and-time again in the world of work. You're doing this because a) you're good at it and b) it's something to keep the money in until you become a teacher (do correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm going to say something completely against the grain but it's not in any way meant as being an ass but it's something I've learned through life. I love a lot of your advice Spoon but I take it with a pinch of salt and I don't take your word as gospel and/or just accept it without questioning because of everything you said in the quote above.

All we can all teach people is to teach them how to get where we have got. Now you can teach a lot of us newbies a lot of the basics, and I love your posts about moving up in limits, learning how to multi-table and playing for longer lengths of time, and especially how to use software to check our stats. But, I think people need to understand what you've put here. You're a multi-tabling 100nl/200nl online player who is only doing it until he gets to where he wants to be in life. Not someone who is looking to keep moving up until he is the top of the tree.

So, taking that and looking at this thread, I think you're doing this experience to see if you can find some spark to keep you playing. Otherwise you may just turn around, look at your bank account, and think about leaving the game.

That's my thoughts/ramblings. Take it for what it's worth.

[spoonitnow]

Okay so let's drop a bomb. I'm being 100% serious with this statement:

I don't particularly like poker, but it's better than alternatives for me at this point. For me, poker is a means to an end, and not much else.

Thoughts?

You've actually said/hinted at this throughout your posts about yourself and I think this is something a lot of people miss.

You don't HAVE to love something to make money at it, this is seen time-and-time again in the world of work. You're doing this because a) you're good at it and b) it's something to keep the money in until you become a teacher (do correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm going to say something completely against the grain but it's not in any way meant as being an ass but it's something I've learned through life. I love a lot of your advice Spoon but I take it with a pinch of salt and I don't take your word as gospel and/or just accept it without questioning because of everything you said in the quote above.

All we can all teach people is to teach them how to get where we have got. Now you can teach a lot of us newbies a lot of the basics, and I love your posts about moving up in limits, learning how to multi-table and playing for longer lengths of time, and especially how to use software to check our stats. But, I think people need to understand what you've put here. You're a multi-tabling 100nl/200nl online player who is only doing it until he gets to where he wants to be in life. Not someone who is looking to keep moving up until he is the top of the tree.

So, taking that and looking at this thread, I think you're doing this experience to see if you can find some spark to keep you playing. Otherwise you may just turn around, look at your bank account, and think about leaving the game.

That's my thoughts/ramblings. Take it for what it's worth.

You're much closer than anyone has been so far.

[spoonitnow]

Update: March 25, 2008, 6:05 PM

2nl, 5901 hands, +$21.59

In my top 5 worst hands, AA, KK and TT are all included. I've got to leave now to go eat some cake and whatnot for my brother's 18th birthday, but fwiw I've played 7.13 hours today, the most I've played in a day since before I moved into this apartment.

[wesrman]

Isnt this gonna hurt your bill paying abilities???

Of course not. If taking a week off was going to do that, then what business would I have playing at all?

Lol, for some reason i thought it was gonna be for a month.

[spoonitnow]

Isnt this gonna hurt your bill paying abilities???

Of course not. If taking a week off was going to do that, then what business would I have playing at all?

Lol, for some reason i thought it was gonna be for a month.

Nah just the rest of this month, which is really only 4-5 days counting today since I don't play on Thursday or Friday anyway.

[wesrman]

I think Spoon's the kind of guy that enjoys the learning process involved in things, and then finds it boring once hes successfull at it. Its not unusal for people that are naturally competitive and obsessive (obsessive in a good way ). Its the journey he enjoys more than the destination.

[spoonitnow]

I think Spoon's the kind of guy that enjoys the learning process involved in things, and then finds it boring once hes successfull at it. Its not unusal for people that are naturally competitive and obsessive (obsessive in a good way ). Its the journey he enjoys more than the destination.

While this is true, I wouldn't say I'm particularly successful with poker. And well, it's not that I'm becoming bored with poker or anything, I just never really liked no-limit all that much to begin with, but it's where the money is atm.

[wesrman]

While this is true, I wouldn't say I'm particularly successful with poker. And well, it's not that I'm becoming bored with poker or anything, I just never really liked no-limit all that much to begin with, but it's where the money is atm.

This is me too. Im a stud fan really, but there isnt much traffic in the stud forums or at the tables (especially live). I actually just played a small sessoin tonight (the first time since january when i decided to learn NLHE) and im gonna get back into it. I can play both and it will keep me more interested and may help my bankroll also.
Whats your favourite game Spoon??

[spoonitnow]

While this is true, I wouldn't say I'm particularly successful with poker. And well, it's not that I'm becoming bored with poker or anything, I just never really liked no-limit all that much to begin with, but it's where the money is atm.

This is me too. Im a stud fan really, but there isnt much traffic in the stud forums or at the tables (especially live). I actually just played a small sessoin tonight (the first time since january when i decided to learn NLHE) and im gonna get back into it. I can play both and it will keep me more interested and may help my bankroll also.
Whats your favourite game Spoon??

Limit hold'em obv.

[swiggidy]

I could just be post-whoring.

Need a coach? I'll offer you a discount.

I would write a guide, but I'm a nit.

[martindcx1e]

While this is true, I wouldn't say I'm particularly successful with poker. And well, it's not that I'm becoming bored with poker or anything, I just never really liked no-limit all that much to begin with, but it's where the money is atm.

This is me too. Im a stud fan really, but there isnt much traffic in the stud forums or at the tables (especially live). I actually just played a small sessoin tonight (the first time since january when i decided to learn NLHE) and im gonna get back into it. I can play both and it will keep me more interested and may help my bankroll also.
Whats your favourite game Spoon??

Limit hold'em obv.

nl crazy pineapple ftw

[spoonitnow]

While this is true, I wouldn't say I'm particularly successful with poker. And well, it's not that I'm becoming bored with poker or anything, I just never really liked no-limit all that much to begin with, but it's where the money is atm.

This is me too. Im a stud fan really, but there isnt much traffic in the stud forums or at the tables (especially live). I actually just played a small sessoin tonight (the first time since january when i decided to learn NLHE) and im gonna get back into it. I can play both and it will keep me more interested and may help my bankroll also.
Whats your favourite game Spoon??

Limit hold'em obv.

nl crazy pineapple ftw

FWIW, I feel that I have a huge edge in UB's "Royal Hold'em" (it's just limit hold'em but with only the cards A/K/Q/J/T). I like crazy pineapple too.

[martindcx1e]

omg crazy pineapple makes me drool. if that ever caught on i'm positive it'd be a huge cash cow. i never did try out royal over at ub while i was there. man, broadway-only cards sounds so weird.

[dev]

Everybody keeps bringing up motivation... I don't know that that's even an issue with spoon. I don't know that I can relate to his situation, because I really do love this game (more live than in the online form, but I still love you, baby). I'm inclined to think that this has one of two possible reasons. One is that spoon intends to teach poker for even more money (the less likely) and this will not only give him more credibility at low stakes but also help him understand low-limit players. The second is that he intends to go pro, and this gives him the knowledge and confidence that he can move down if necessary and still make ends meet.

[XTR1000]

Limit hold'em obv.

5card draw ftw. seriously. they keep folding

[daven]

How do you think this experiment will effect your usual game?

it will make it fun again...

another theory - already discounted. Someone said in another spoon "going pro" thread that the best players will not rely on poker for their main income a few years from now...

so, spoon, you pull all your money and use it for whatever. Start again and grind up a roll for 100nl, the money you pulled is now unrelated to and unnecessary for poker. That's a good thing. Invest it how you want.....

[jimmy44]

Limit hold'em obv.

5card draw ftw. seriously. they keep folding

It might be overated, but I prefer NLHE!

[spoonitnow]

omg crazy pineapple makes me drool. if that ever caught on i'm positive it'd be a huge cash cow. i never did try out royal over at ub while i was there. man, broadway-only cards sounds so weird.

It's a bit restricted because you usually need a boat of some sort to be even close, but in terms of math and game theory and whatnot it's really nice to play with only a 20-card deck. That's probably why I like it so much.

Everybody keeps bringing up motivation... I don't know that that's even an issue with spoon. I don't know that I can relate to his situation, because I really do love this game (more live than in the online form, but I still love you, baby). I'm inclined to think that this has one of two possible reasons. One is that spoon intends to teach poker for even more money (the less likely) and this will not only give him more credibility at low stakes but also help him understand low-limit players. The second is that he intends to go pro, and this gives him the knowledge and confidence that he can move down if necessary and still make ends meet.

I want to make one thing certain: I will never teach poker for money. I'm nowhere near good enough to even consider doing that for an instant. Any "advice" I give on the forums should be taken with an understanding that I'm mostly throwing around ideas and looking for discussion, not for people to follow what I'm saying as gospel or something. In addition, I'd like to add that the only purpose poker has for me, at this point anyway, is to be able to live semi-comfortably until I finish school, since there aren't many other jobs around this hellhole that would allow me to do that.

Limit hold'em obv.

5card draw ftw. seriously. they keep folding

I play some pl5cd occasionally, and in general the players are really, really bad. If you can find some 5 card stud games (Bodog and Absolute have this I believe) then people make some pretty huge and obvious mistakes rather often.

How do you think this experiment will effect your usual game?

it will make it fun again...

another theory - already discounted. Someone said in another spoon "going pro" thread that the best players will not rely on poker for their main income a few years from now...

so, spoon, you pull all your money and use it for whatever. Start again and grind up a roll for 100nl, the money you pulled is now unrelated to and unnecessary for poker. That's a good thing. Invest it how you want.....

Nah I'd never do that.

[spoonitnow]

Also it's funny how my "Ask Spoony About Full Ring" thread came to a crashing halt as soon as I posted this, heh.

[spoonitnow]

I told fatb so I might as well go ahead and tell everyone.

This thread has got to be the best level I've ever pulled here that doesn't involve Ripptyde.

I played 2nl yesterday to see how bad I would beat it playing 16-20 tables and watching videos the whole time. Pure curiosity. Slightly -EV perhaps.

I've had no intentions of continuing play under 100nl.

God I'm such a dick. Thoughts?

[wesrman]

I dont really see it being that much of a level.

[XTR1000]

<22:12pm> XTR1k: I think we just get leveled hard