Operation: stack 10nl fish and get 30 buy-ins for 25nl

[wonderland]

Hello fans of my tilty whines!

I am here with my SECOND operation which shall document my journey from the almost start of 10nl (like 25% in) to 25nl @ 30 buy-ins. So let's spell that out nice and bold like:

Current BR: $370 (give or take by the time you read this)

Goal: $750

I beat my last target of taking my role from around $260 ish at the very start of my second shot at 10, to $360 ish making me firmly settled into the land of ten. I AM a 10nler, good and proper now.

What's more is i feel, after hitting around the 10k hand mark, that i have it figured out and can probably beat it with some consistency.

Current win rate: 3.96 PTBB/100
Goal: 6 PTBB/100

I currently feel like something of a 10nl know-it-all at the moment. Not because i can DESTROY my stake but because i really know it, and know how to get through at a reasonable win rate. Not amazing win rate, but reasonable.

It took me almost 10k hands to realise this $$ saving concept:

At 10nl on Stars... people bet strong/raise/check-raise/shove with MORE than TPTK around 75% of the time. Usually it's two pair, but also it's just surprise big hands. So if you start to get this and fold, you'll save a ton of money. I mean a LOT of money.

Next concept:

Tighten up. Just do it. Throw those 'ok' hands away. Things get marginal, better players can carry on with such hands but if you're not one of those players, don't play those cards. Throw, throw and throw those hands away. Just got 3bet with AQ? unknown player? throw it. That kind of thing.

Summary of the above:

Just sit back and wait for your big hands. Open up 4 tables and fold those medium hands. Let your range be polarized at this stake, they won't adjust. We should be starting tables at fishy times of day and shutting down the tighter tables.

Concepts beyond the above and concepts for me to start to play with:

Checking big flops. I HATE slow playing but people really can fold at 10nl at times. Just today i hit 2 pair SO many times and got no action. So thinking about putting in delayed fast plays you could call it. Here's an example:

http://weaktight.com/1165904

I admit that it's risky, and i could be wrong overall. But i am wondering, at this level, if over the long run it could be profitable.

Also thin value and getting value in general. I find trying to get thin value at 10nl just risky, but if i can learn to get solid reads and deduce ranges, i can start to open my range IP and open my value betting range. Not quite yet though.

Anyway, i don't want to get into too much here, just an introduction to the ginding that's ahead of me. I anticipate to be playing 25nl some time around August.

My previous OP:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...84894-150.html

[xpaand]

I'll be following this OP pretty closely. I'm rolled for 10NL @ 30 buy-ins, but I haven't made the leap yet.

[nibbles]

GL

[Jason]

Maybe I misunderstood, but if your goal is to reach 30 buy-ins for $25NL, wouldn't that be $750, not $600? I would recommend having $750 if not more before you take a shot @ $25NL. Good luck.

Maybe I misunderstood, but if your goal is to reach 30 buy-ins for $25NL, wouldn't that be $750, not $600? I would recommend having $750 if not more before you take a shot @ $25NL. Good luck.

o dem maths

[wonderland]

lol.

WHERE THE FUCK did i get that idea from?? i just thought: 30 buy-ins... then i thought... $600. For some reason i just kept that idea going round in my head without actually checking up on it.

Aww fuck, make that september.

cheers.

[wonderland]

*collapse*

ok, i take it back. I'm shit at 10nl. I know nothing.

just had the most hideous session. Played for about 4 hours straight, from midnight till 4am and basically spent 2 hours losing the buy-in i'd won during the day, and then 2 hours breaking even.

HELL it was, living HELL. Just odds defying luck. Grim grim grim poker death. Fucking birds are tweeting outside.

One of those: no matter WHAT happens i'm losing - sessions. Nervous wreck. Kept being naughty and checking my wins for the day and no matter how good i'd been running in the last few hands, it never rose, only stayed static or fell. Every cunt drew out on me, i flope straight/flush draws and hit NOOOTHING on turn or river. SO many bets i made with draws got raised or shoved over. Felt like i was playing 100nl or something. Proper poker fu.

This one rat bastard fish called a 4x UTG raise from my pretty AK and flopped 488 and he had 83o. I think though, if i hadn't been a foldatron, i'd have been in the red for the day. I folded a flush that i'd flopped on an unpaired board. Practically begged him to tell me what he had and it was the nut flush. Not until i'd given a few dollars to the cause but still. I know during those times, if someone is desperate to put money in the pot, just desperate... they have obviously got a flush, having a 7 high flush just aint good enough.

Fuck man, i never even thought that was possible since my new self imposed 10nl status of 'winning player'. I always thought, man if i played for like hours... i'd clean up. Specially late on a saturday night. WRONG!

Ok, expect many MANY more moans from yours truly over the course of this fucking four month grind.

[sil693]

seriously dude, i wish you all the best, but if losing a BI in 2 hours then breaking even for 2 hours does this to you then I guarantee you won't get close to where you want to be.

work on your tilt issues man, because thats your biggest leak at the minute.

gl.

[lolzzz_321]

go for a long run

[wonderland]

bla, i'm gonna rant here. I am gonna tilt at such times and that can't really change overnight, but venting helps. Pokertherapy.com, now there's an idea. Like that scene from Fight Club.

Hi, my name is wonderland and... umm... last night i lost a buy-in *lip quiver* it was just two hands... he called my AA with Q9... and then my AK with 57o... *sob* his VPIP was enoooormousss waaaa!

Thank you for sharing, wonderland.

[wonderland]

Ah the SWINGS children.

Just played for a little over half an hour and won almost two buy-ins. Ah shut up, you all love me really.

Ran 19.05/13.61 so they're converging more. Mainly limp/calling my small PP really. Maybe needs work, but remember, we're playing 10nl here.

Ahem, so, little round up. Ending the month here, no more poker for May now. Thread due tomorrow i guess, to illustrate.

For now, here's total 10nl stats update:

Current BR: $381.29 (fack! nearly at 400, yey)
Win rate: 4.09 PTBB which is good considering last night's performance.
Hands: 10,746 (lord, feels like more)
Player stats: 17.99/11.06/3.15 (needs work but not too much i feel, get it around 18/14 and i'd be happy)

Concepts: still trying out the checking-well-hit-flops thing. I find if i smack the flop in the eyes, and it looks even slightly intimidating, i just aint gettting any value from betting. People are stupid at 10 but not THAT stupid. Unlike 5nl. Anyway so far i've seen good results. One day i'll cry when i'm outdrawn but so far i think it's profitable.

[daven]

title of your op is interesting.
Stack fish, sure, but win small pots too. I'm finally getting around to addressing this issue - way later than i should be. It has cost me a lot of money to rely so much on big pot poker, avoid the same mistake!

I mean, big pots should play themselves more or less...

[wonderland]

yeah, in the Poker Mindset, it talks about the benefit in being greedy. Like we must take as much as we can rather than, say, shrugging and just waiting for them to bet so we can let go of our hand.

But stacking fish *shrug* it's just a catchy, chewy saying.

Would like some comments on checking nice flops.

[sil693]

For my university dissertation, I was in a group of 3. One of the other 2 guys I was working with took a year out before university playing 400NL / 600NL 6max + all the big Sunday MTTs, and plans on doing the same now we're finished. He told me something that made so much sense despite the fact I'd never thought of it. It went like this:

"We all hit big hands and we all get coolered. It's inevitable that this shit evens out in the long run. The long term winners make their money in the smaller pots, the far more standard, every day spots".

[wonderland]

yeah, i like that.

It's worth dwelling on that for a while. Really think about what that means in one's game. The smaller pots are where the skill is at usually.

I shall remember that.

[wonderland]

wheeee! i made silver star!

although, fuck load of good it's going to do me.

is there any point in being 'anything' star below platinum or even supernova if all i can do is buy merchandise and get into tourneys?

[Jason]

Yeah, not to hijack your thread, but if you figure it out, point me to a link with the rundown on the benefits of those FPP's on Stars. I've just been focused on playing good poker @ the moment, so I don't really understand why people want to reach Silver, Gold or whatever. It seems like unless you can exchange them for cash, what's the point?

[Robb]

For now, here's total 10nl stats update:

Current BR: $381.29 (fack! nearly at 400, yey)
Win rate: 4.09 PTBB which is good considering last night's performance.
Hands: 10,746 (lord, feels like more)
Player stats: 17.99/11.06/3.15 (needs work but not too much i feel, get it around 18/14 and i'd be happy)

NH on the win rate. Don't worry about the hands - you'll add a table or two over the next few months and start cranking more hands per month. The focus right now should be on learning the game, which you seem be tracking with.

About small pp, I think 10nl is the last level where you can limp/call w/ small pp's and get paid. It's also the time to ditch them from UTG and open-raise them when you play them. My suggestion is to open-raise 77+ UTG and just open-fold 22 - 66. If you want better hands to open UTG, add in 87s and 76s. They strengthen your range, and you'll want sc's in your EP open-raise range for 50nl+. Might as well add one or two in now and get used to cbetting them oop on Axx and Kxx flops where everyone at the table (even 10nl players) expect big cards. I like the med sc's for two reasons. First, when they hit 2 pair, you aren't facing straight-draw combos as often from the broadways that will call you (KJ, QJs, JTs, etc). Second, when they make SD's, they aren't the donkey-end to AQ/AJ/KJ/JT quite as often.

Most 100nl 6m players on FTR seem to open a few sc's UTG, maybe JTs - 65s or something similar. I'm tighter than that UTG, but I open all of them in MP. If you want to build your game for the next level, now is the time to quit the open-limping which is easily isolated and trade it for creating an UTG that will play well postflop at 25nl+.

I started by adding in a single sc (87s is my personal favorite) to learn to play it. In the context of your strong UTG range, it plays pretty well. You can play a few dozen hands with it UTG and learn the basics in about a month. Then you can add one or two more. At 10nl, I would ditch it to any 3bet unless we were WAY deep or against a total agro-fish.

The 6m regs tend to open Axs (x < 6) UTG and MP, too, but I would wait on that until 25nl, if I were you. Those hands are harder to play oop against the typical flatting ranges.

The smaller pots are where the skill is at usually.

BJsaust said basically this to me a while back. The key to winning big at the micros is getting away from hands where we're beat one street sooner and getting one more bet in when we're ahead. Do that more often - even just a couple times per 100 hands, and you're win rate is boosted a ton.

And honestly, the stack off hands kinda play themselves. You just try to make sure you're winning your rightful share and getting away from spots where you're dominated.

[wonderland]

very nice contribution Robberto. As usual.

quick digression then back to your post...

i decided to review my 2nl play tonight, just quickly bring up my biggest losing hands, see if i could have done anything different. Totally expecting to see me doing shit like open limping AA or raising AA 3x UTG... but there was none of that... all my plays were kind of standard. Not perfect but not too far off how i play now. Really annoying coz i was hoping i'd have changed dramatically.

Also, most of my big losses were just me getting rivered by idiots. That kind of hurts coz i see me rivering other people like... pretty close to NEVER. This isn't a whine by the way, just something that made me go: damn *head scratch*

So being able to open and play 87s UTG would be a noticeable change. Scares me a bit. You saying i need to open cbet oop on an ace high? interesting. That's rather stone cold. Like your thinking though, i fancy you'd stack people quite easily if you hit but i would also imagine having to fold an awful lot, no? And one more thing... surely 22-66 has a lot of flop power Vs 78s?? I'd hate to ditch them.

Although... yesterday i was on possitive tilt and opened 23s from the button with one tight player, one loose ahead of me. Flop comes 456. So i bet out, got raised, re-raised him, he called. Then i think he shoved the turn. I call. Was hoping he had pocker over-pair so i could say i had a stealth hand i beat him with. Idiot had A4. But still, nice to open those hands, he was probably trying to bluff me off the flop coz he just KNEW i'd missed with like KQs or something.

Thanks robb.

Edit: another thing, just checked my stats and all my pp are making me money except 44 and 22 and i checked those in the HH and they would be also in the green were it not for a couple of coolers. That said, all those low pairs would be hovering around the green side of breakeven. Finally, my final hands $$ tally shows 3 of a kind as the most profitable hand. So i would also wonder why people ditch half of their pp or thereabouts, preflop?

[Robb]

Also, most of my big losses were just me getting rivered by idiots. That kind of hurts coz i see me rivering other people like... pretty close to NEVER. This isn't a whine by the way, just something that made me go: damn *head scratch*[/b]

If you're behind A LOT LESS on the TURN than your opponents are, you'll river them less.

So being able to open and play 87s UTG would be a noticeable change. Scares me a bit.

It's not what we're trained to do with ABC TAGG pokerz. But you need to learn that we're playing a RANGE, not a particular combo.

You saying i need to open cbet oop on an ace high? interesting. That's rather stone cold.

They're expecting AK-type hands from an UTG pfr. Just pretend on the flop like you're playing AKs and bet exactly the same, same size. If you catch air on the turn, ditch it, just like I hope you do with AK. If you sometimes c/f AKs on horrible flops (and they miss 87s), then c/f. Remember, they don't know you DON'T have AK if they fold.

Like your thinking though, i fancy you'd stack people quite easily if you hit but i would also imagine having to fold an awful lot, no?

2 pair+ w/ 87s UTG is the nutz - they don't see it coming and stack off nicely with JJ on boards like 96x5x or 87xxx.

And one more thing... surely 22-66 has a lot of flop power Vs 78s?? I'd hate to ditch them.

The problem with 22 - 66 is that, from EP, it's really hard to win a pot without hitting your set. Sure, we cbet them whenever possible, but we can't continue if flatted and certainly not if raised. So their main value comes from stacking people when we hit the set. That means that playing them is MUCH more valuable when:

1. There's no 3bet preflop.
2. We have position and can control the size of the pot.
3. We have villains agro enough to stack off.

UTG, we can't control the preflop betting behind us and are generally oop throughout the whole hand. It's just mega-obvious when we hit a set. Sure, they'll pay you off enough at 10nl to make it worth it (I said so earlier). But you'll stack 'em just as often with 87s and have more opportunities to cbet more comfortably and even 2-barrel some draws with it.

Edit: another thing, just checked my stats and all my pp are making me money except 44 and 22 and i checked those in the HH and they would be also in the green were it not for a couple of coolers. That said, all those low pairs would be hovering around the green side of breakeven. Finally, my final hands $$ tally shows 3 of a kind as the most profitable hand. So i would also wonder why people ditch half of their pp or thereabouts, preflop?

We're only ditching them UTG. Actually, I play 25% of pp's 22 - 66 UTG, and 50% of them from MP. I think other hands are more valuable and fit in my tight UTG image better. I play all pp's for an open-raise CO/BTN. How I play the blinds depends on whether or not there's limpers.

[wonderland]

cool, that makes sense. We're just getting away from lots of hands UTG in general.

It's not what we're trained to do with ABC TAGG pokerz. But you need to learn that we're playing a RANGE, not a particular combo.

Could you elaborate on this a little? not sure what you're getting at.

I would dare to argue that at 10nl, the people i play aren't expecting AK UTG, they're not expecting anything really. I get called with weak hands ALL the time. Like Q4 etc. when i raise 4x UTG with AK. They just want to see flops as much as possible. But... later on people WILL be expecting such hands. Prolly 25/50nl +

Ok, some hands for y'all...

hand 1: http://weaktight.com/1170520
hand 2: http://weaktight.com/1170523

Both hands i played very intentionally. I've shown the results to see if you can see whether villain played them reasonably or not and also just so you can understand why i played the hands the way i did in terms of the sorts of plays these villains will make with these hands.

So, hand1, QQ. I had just sat down. Villain was fishy looking, short stack. He opens and i figure it's probably kinda wide, so i 3bet my queens. Trust me, i smelled a fish. Flop was clean so i shoved as i sensed he would call, thinking me a 'just sat down' idiot. Then i stoved our hands and realised his call wasn't rediculous.

Hand 2, KQ. This guy i had a note on saying he was an idiot, calling down light, calling raises with total garbage. So i treated KQ almost like the nuts. Think i had the intention of c/r him but anywho, saw my Q and thought i could take the fucker's stack if i check here. So i did and even suspected the c/r would make him tilt shove.

So i was quite pleased with those plays. What do people think?

[wonderland]

Additional.

Just broke my first $400 tonight! like two pennies over!

only facking $350 to go *sob*

and my current win rate is: 4.78 PTBB/100

[Robb]

Hand 1, his call isn't ridiculous, but he's playing the top end of his range. There's like half his range that's dominated here.

I like both hands, especially Hand 2, where you went with your read and played it correctly for that spot.

I also like that nearly 5 ptbb/100 winrate at 10nl, too. Means you're pretty well ready for 25nl (if it's 15k+ sample size). $600 is 24 BI at 25nl which is a comfortable bankroll target. Maybe take your first shot at$600 with, say, a $400 stop-loss. If it doesn't work out, grind up to $650 and take another shot.

[wonderland]

Hand 1, his call isn't ridiculous, but he's playing the top end of his range. There's like half his range that's dominated here.

I'm not sure i understand what this means exactly.

i think i shall save up more towards $750 ish. And dude... i would NOT let myself lose $400 before dropping! i think i would drop down after a small amount of buy-ins, that's how i tend to do things. If i'm running bad, i drop down, build up role + confidence + morale. I think this works, and also why my graph looks nice.

[miniboss]

i'll be following this, good luck dude, looking good

[Robb]

i think i shall save up more towards $750 ish. And dude... i would NOT let myself lose $400 before dropping! i think i would drop down after a small amount of buy-ins, that's how i tend to do things. If i'm running bad, i drop down, build up role + confidence + morale. I think this works, and also why my graph looks nice.

Sounds good, except when I say stop-loss of $400, I mean move down as soon as your bankroll is below $400, when you've lost 8 BI's. At a $750 move up, you can use a $500 stop-loss, moving back down if your bankroll drops below $500. That gives you 10 BI of leeway to adjust to 25nl.

[wonderland]

ohh right, sure. yes.

I totally anticipate a failed 25nl attempt. Stacks had a few shots, dranger did it on his 2nd shot. 25 is the biggest jump. That's why this grind is going to take forever.

Had some thoughts about my game recently. Wonder why i've been doing ok and when i haven't, what's been going on there. At these stakes, playing standard exploitable is just plane +EV and an almost guaranteed win. Just takes time and the odd plough through of downswings.

So whenever i've been losing it's often down to:

a) having a run of bad cards, missing flops etc.
b) getting rivered, them being behind and calling without odds etc.
c) adjusting to a new stake/underestimating what they have

How i've been winning has been down to the basic tag style, refining it but MAINLY through understanding how my stake plays. It takes about 10k hands to find that out. Basically, find out what people of certain types/styles shove with. To this end, i know SO often when i'm beat. This is a huge thing for me and something i feel gives me a real edge. I have a solid grasp of what aggression means for MY stake. Also, people at 10nl play their cards face up is the thing. I think this stake will be easy to beat as long as i don't hit any shit luck like multiples of KK under AA etc. so far that hasn't happened.

* the above abc isn't a moan, it's just a fact for the majority of the time. And what i'm saying is, as long as that isn't happening, i'm taking lots of $$. Thing is, there are times that happens more than is probable, but again, they should be the minority and i guess have been if you look at my graph.

[Robb]

It's not what we're trained to do with ABC TAGG pokerz. But you need to learn that we're playing a RANGE, not a particular combo.

Could you elaborate on this a little? not sure what you're getting at.

Hand 1, his call isn't ridiculous, but he's playing the top end of his range. There's like half his range that's dominated here.

I'm not sure i understand what this means exactly.

I know that at 10nl, villains aren't very good at putting people on ranges, but they are capable of reacting to "scare cards," which is hand reading in it's most primitive form. So we are representing a certain range of hands, which is why cbetting often works.

Consider: Hero is MP and open-raises AJ, gets called by TAGG wannabe CO who holds 55. The flop is K96 rainbow. Hero cbets. CO folds. Why? Hero's actual hand is behind the CO's 66. But Hero's range is stronger.

On the flip side, when we take an action against opponents, we try to put them on as accurate a range of hands as possible and take the best line against the entire range at once.

Typical situation at 10nl. There's $6 in a HU pot on a drawy flop, Hero and Villain both have $7 behind. Hero's got 2 pair. He estimates the following about Villain's range:

10% nut hands (made straights, sets, etc)
10% combo hands with 12+ outs
50% draws with 8 - 9 outs
20% one pair hands
10% bluffs/junk

Villain bets the flop 1/2 psb, and Hero considers a shove. He know that 10% of the time Villain calls the shove and has him crushed. (That's when we say "villain showed up with the top of his range," or "villain was playing the top of his range.") And Villain certainly SHOULD call with with combos and draws, even though he's behind, with all the dead money in the pot. But Hero is well ahead of the range of hands Villain could show down.

All right, so this response has gotten way long. Somewhat at 50nl and a bit more at 100nl, villains really do try to put you on a range. So you're playing the entire spectrum of cards they think you could have. That's why there's light 3betting, resteals from the blinds, and 4bet bluffs.

Of course, at 10nl they don't read you all that well. But they DO tend to respect big cards that hit the board against EP/MP pre-flop raisers. So you're not playing your hand, you're playing a group of hands they think it's likely you hold.

[wonderland]

i think i'm getting there. When you say half his range is dominated, you mean half his 3bet calling range? like what is defining his range?

so, been thinking more on how i'm learning, how much i'm learning and kind of how much it's even beneficial to study concepts (i'm not even suggesting it isn't, just stripping things down to their bare components). This came to me when, like i've mentioned, i went over old HH from 2nl and noticed i was playing kind of similarly to now. Yet i've done a lot of study since.

So i'm trying to chunk the big concepts that have made me a rather solid winning player until now. By solid i don't mean BRILLIANT, my PTBB/100 is rather average, but like the most i've lost at any one stake is 3 buy-ins in one ... period. Like i might lose big in a sesh or two, but then the next sesh pull back out and re-adjust. Or drop a stake to grind back up the loss. So... what's it been down to?

First thing that made a difference, and took about 20k hands to get reasonably solid is pre flop game. Still working on it, but it's enough to win. Learning to (slowly) move away from UTG plays and opening in later positions. At 10nl this becomes even more important because of all the 3bets that go on + 3bet shoves from all the short fukkerz.

Bet sizing is another backbone of poker playing. Still experimenting with this. More to stop them calling, less to keep them in the hand bla bla. Then more refinements, cbets and bluffs, realising that you can bet less there to get them to fold.

Tightening up. Beginners HATE tightening up. Just open up another table and it will balance things out. Learn to enjoy not pissing your money away basically. Once you trust that this is what happens when you tighten up, you realise that you make money from folding.

Perhaps one of the most NOTICEABLE changes that you can see very strongly is learning what sorts of hands people are getting aggressive with. So listen up pre 10nlers... people raise you (not min raise, like a nice solid, deliberate, typed in raise) with AT FUKING LEAST two pair. Unless they are bluff spewing donk fish. Then maybe it's air/top pair but note: you will know who they are and those plays constitute about 20%, or maybe a lot less, of plays.

I have a good example of not doing this, shall add it when i get home. I just KNEW he had me beat. If there's a flush draw on the board and they raise you, don't be surprised when they have the flush. Straights are slightly more tricky, but basically, a nice solid raise means you're beat ... UNLESS... you absolutely KNOW otherwise.

Another thing i've found is that people play cards face up at 10. You raise with AK, ace hits, you bet, they often know you have it. This is hard to explain but too often, you make your monster on the flop and you bet out coz you want to get that money in. They fold SO much it's untrue. Confuse them. I've started checking my flops and so far it's managed to stack off a lot more easily and profitably. No one has of yet drawn out coz of checking back the flop. They will, but i think overall it's going to be very profitable.

Ok that's all for now. Will add hands as i go i think, which reflect these concepts. Cheers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HANDS

edit: here's the hand http://weaktight.com/1177275
I played it too fast and didn't take time to think. There's a flush on the board and he's raising, he wouldn't raise into me with anything but a flush here. It's too tempting with 2 pair and all that, a lot of people here think two pair is the nuts and 'snap call'. Learn not to just call because you sorta 'should' if you fukking know he has you beat.

Another hand where I DID follow my instincts: http://weaktight.com/1177286
i get min raised and am really confused and just know i can't just fold here. So i call not knowing quite what he's doing here. I think i know he has a flush but am just waiting to see a free showdown on the river. He simply wouldn't do this with 67. So on the river i know he has the flush and my 7 high just isn't good enough to call. Balls to pot odds.

I asked him what he had and he said he flopped the K high flush. And i do believe him because he knows that *i* have at least a flush here when i raise on a monotone.

Set Vs KK/AA:
http://weaktight.com/1177296
When he raises me i think it's probably pocket overpair, TT-QQ but not AA coz i'd have probably be been all in by now. So all i can do here is shove. When he SNAAAAP calls me i bet my actual penis that he has 44/66/55 without a shred of doubt. I just didn't, subconsciously, put them in his 3bet calling range massively. He got about 10:1 implied odds pre flop so maybe. I have been known to call with only 10:1 before because i know we're stacking off if i hit my set. Otherwise, you can hit your set and fold out three people and make almost nothing (chilled out pre flop calls rather than invested 3bet pots).

Last night one guy was 3betting all his PP. Not too bad really coz you can rep a big hand and get folds, and if you hit your set, you're more likely to stack off.

[Robb]

i think i'm getting there. When you say half his range is dominated, you mean half his 3bet calling range? like what is defining his range?

Yeah, when we stop at a certain point in the hand, say considering a flop action after a 3bet pre, we call his "range" the group of hands we've "narrowed it down to" by taking all of his likely preflop and throwing out all the ones that don't make sense based on later actions.

Now, FTR regs often disagree on their various estimates of ranges, but the key point is that villain's range should narrow. And the better you get at forming these ranges and narrowing them based on the action, the more money you'll make.

Good players often pick off bluffs by seeing villain take an action that just can't match any hand in his range. They've successfully narrowed things down so much that they know exactly how much should be bet/raised, or if villain should be trying to check it down. If villain does something odd, the good player thinks "wtf, are you kidding me?!" So he calls or raises bluffs where the weak player would fold, thinking he was beat.

Don't try it too much at 10nl 'cuz they aren't ever bluffing.

NH on recapping your major points of learning, btw. I think you're definitely on the right track for learning the game enough to beat 25nl+.

[wonderland]

Good players often pick off bluffs by seeing villain take an action that just can't match any hand in his range. They've successfully narrowed things down so much that they know exactly how much should be bet/raised, or if villain should be trying to check it down. If villain does something odd, the good player thinks "wtf, are you kidding me?!" So he calls or raises bluffs where the weak player would fold, thinking he was beat.

Don't try it too much at 10nl 'cuz they aren't ever bluffing.

That's cool. I look forward to having those kinds of reading abilities. Sometimes i feel like a poker player is like a detective. Powers of deduction. Only thing is, there's still the element of surprise because if we see a 40/8 villain, can we reeeally put Q4o in his range?? or the board pairs a 3, can he really have called with that 3? And that can be a mystery.

NH on recapping your major points of learning, btw. I think you're definitely on the right track for learning the game enough to beat 25nl+.

Why thank you rob, that's good to hear. Just wondering where i go from here. I think to summarise all the stuff i said in my last post about wondering where the bulk of my learning has come from and just what IS it that i think i know... i feel it's basically about playing, playing and playing and then noticing patterns and weaving my studies through it to tighten it up. I fold to a raise about 80% of the time now if it's more than a min raise. I'm fine with that at 10nl but will have to really know my shit at higher levels. At 100nl, how often are people bluff raising? at 10nl it's very very seldom.

So i had a good sesh tonight if only for ONE hand that brought me up. Guess i deserved it, been hitting the flop well all night but villain getting hit harder. Annoying. But the big hand was me 4 betting a full stack all in with my AA full stack. He had AQs *shrug*

here are the stats for the sesh:

hands: 782
BB/100: 8.31
player stats: 19.18/14.08/3.89
Total BR: $403

Current poker ideas are still about disguising the hell of out big hands. Everyone kept saying BET when you hit your hand but the amount of time someone else is hitting and calling with less is just not enough times to make this profitable. That was 5nl talk. Here's an example, not amazing, and also an example of my caution. I never chuck in a load of chips without the absolute nuts.

I knew that i could have re-raised here but i figured this villain would NOT be raising without a flush *shrug* my river bet was small enough to call see but maybe i accidentally turned into false weakness so he thought i could be pushed off? hence a re-raise would be necessary? that's the only line i can think of that would give me confidence to do that.


$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($12.70)
CO CaesarPL ($10.30)
BTN SchoenebergX ($10.30)
SB camgunner ($10.70)
BB Lutzky ($10.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $0.40, CaesarPL calls $0.40, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.95, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, CaesarPL calls $0.65

Turn: ($2.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, CaesarPL checks

River: ($2.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.85, CaesarPL raises to $2.50, Hero calls $1.65

Final Pot: $7.25
Hero shows:
CaesarPL shows:

Hero wins $6.90 ( won +$3.35 )
CaesarPL lost -$3.55

[BooG690]

I wish I knew more about 6max poker...but I don't. However, I am still pretty sure that a raise with KJs UTG is very laggy. It's not really the kind of hand you want to be holding OOP.

As played, why aren't we betting the turn here? A king-high flush calls for a bigger pot imo (though here's a prime example of lack of pot control OOP). Were you hoping he'd bet so you can c/r (though he definitely should've bet)? You have a villain that's obviously willing to call your bets...but still no bet with the second nuts? I believe you missed a lot of value in this hand...you can't just bet and gain value from the absolute nuts. As we've both learned as we went on with our journeys in poker, ranges are very important. And with your king-high flush, you are WAY ahead of his range. I don't think he'd fold to a turn bet (though I wish you wouldn't post the results). Betting flush draws gives us a bit deception.

The call on the river isn't bad. He usually doesn't call a reraise with worse (though with this particular villain...he may have). However, what's with the bet sizing? Were you trying to induce a raise here? There seems to be no read here that villain even has a hand to raise us with. Had he just called...we would have missed out on a lot of value.

Altogether, I think you're missing out on a lot of value in hands like these. Good luck with the OP Wonderland. Don't be so timid...learn to profit from "marginal" hands (though this was far from marginal). Most of our profit will come from thin value and borderline decisions!

[wonderland]

Thanks for the feedback Boog.

I wish I knew more about 6max poker...but I don't. However, I am still pretty sure that a raise with KJs UTG is very laggy. It's not really the kind of hand you want to be holding OOP.

we're 5 handed with 2 tight players and two 30% players (tight for 10nl). So i think this is ok here, i don't normally raise this 6 handed UTG. Specially with loose players ahead.

Yeah, i really am trying to find the balance. So often i'm beat that it's forcing me to play SO nitty. I felt here a confident raise into a flush board could ONLY mean the nut flush. Like i say, people are playing face up poker. So my river bet was just me getting him to call as so often he's folding, and i just wanted to get SOME value. A $2 bet would have folded him, i can promise you that. I just expected a call or fold. When the raise came i thought: this guy totally has something here, and without the top flush, i just can't push *scratches head* hopefully you can at least see MY logic, even if it's not ideal logic.

[wonderland]

Question:

I'm currently making less money at 10nl than at 5nl. My current rate is 4.20 BB/100 @ 14k hands and my total for 5nl stands at 8.80 over 18.7k hands.

Is my win rate likely to level out at a higher rate? otherwise i'm wondering (aparent from the notion of climbing to higher and higher stakes/levels of skill) what's the point in building my roll here??

Things i've noticed about 10 (i guess Vs 5):

- people 3bet quite a bit.
- people raise my flop bets quite a bit. Often when i hit too but haven't got a clue what they're doing it with as people never raise with TPTK.
- the days of seeing a cheap/free flop from bb are over.
- no fucker seems to call my bets anymore when i do hit, tonight i folded out 3 people when i hit my set on the turn, the flop was heart heart, spade, spade... no takers... 40c into 50c. This isn't uncommon.
- overall just not getting paid really, not a huge amount of fish.

at first i thought aah well, it's sample size. I'm only at the beginning of 10nl and my win rate at 5 only got high towards the end, but 18k vs 14k sample size... not too far apart eh? is my logic correct here? anyone have a forecast as to what my win rate could optimally be given an approximation of my skill?

feeling poker pessimism! can i really make mone out of this thing?

[BooG690]

I would stick to 10NL to build your bankroll. How else will you know when you are ready for 25NL?

As for your winrate, maybe there's something that can be patched up about your game? Perhaps you are calling 3bets too much (as I was doing). Perhaps you are not calling them enough. 3bets are relatively new to me as they are rarely encountered in 5NL. I've learned to use them a bit...but haven't been doing well in responding to them. I am learning little by little through experience and reading exactly how to respond to them.

Remember, players will be more aggressive at these stakes. You must learn to be aggressive yourself or simply will not survive.

Also, at what times are you playing? Perhaps that's the reason you can't find fish. I assure you...there are hundreds of them lurking around the 10NL. I play at all time...but it seems to me that around 6-7pm GMT is the best time to find fish. A lot of them are shortstacked...but the fullstacked ones are horrible and will pay you off. Good luck bro!

[Gobbatino]

Hey man. Remember to set your expectations at a realistic pace. Maybe you were expecting 8+ BB/100 forever but running at 4.2 BB/100 into a new stake you just moved up into 14k hands ago is awesome, afaik. When I moved up to 10 NL I broke even for about 10k hands, then dropped about 8 buy ins the next 10k (tried to change too many things at once) and only now started making that back up. Yeah there's obvious differences between 5NL and 10NL like the ones you posted. This is where your play evolves and as you adjust and get better your win rate will go up. Fwiw, I wish I had 4.2 BB/100 at 10NL, currently I'm still negative (not counting bonuses and rakeback). :P Just keep grinding and keep learning. The results will follow!

[daven]

Question:

I'm currently making less money at 10nl than at 5nl. My current rate is 4.20 BB/100 @ 14k hands and my total for 5nl stands at 8.80 over 18.7k hands.

Is my win rate likely to level out at a higher rate? otherwise i'm wondering (aparent from the notion of climbing to higher and higher stakes/levels of skill) what's the point in building my roll here??

ok, first, 14k hands is a small-ish sample.
Second, if you're winning at close to the same rate, then yes, stay there. As you adjust/improve, your winrate at 10nl will increase, etc. At 5nl you were probably close to max-value already. And you need to get used to the occasional 3-bet and flop raise. And yes, there are huge numbers of fish, just a different flavour. The same flavour you'll love when you milk them at 100nl later, using skills you learnt in the micros.

Keep it up, you're doing good

[Keith]

Andy, the KJ hand is one where I think you were way way way way way way (.....did i say way) too nittty. As played , I would have have taken my time , made him wait, used a couple of seconds off the time bank and shoved over his reraise. ( did I mention my graph gets swingy ) . You disguised the flush checking the turn , and weak lead on the river, when he raises you , I find they'll call your shove a lot. check out my recent posted hands.
The only cards you have to worry about are AcXc and the chance of him having that combination are pretty low. Having said that , with my new strategy I would probably have tossed KJs pre depending on reads on players left to act.

[wonderland]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I think currently my leaks are that i have no defence against 3bets. Most of the time the guy is 3betting with a slightly worse hand than mine. I often get 3bet when i have AK, they turn over AJ.

And it's happening SO FUCKIN OFTEN!!

So anyways, here's a wee status update and some graphs:

Top one is TEN, bottom one is ALL



Current BR: $420
Win rate: 4.28 BB
Hands: 15.4k
Stats (still a bit iffy): 18.11/11.86/3.24

So everything is ok, my only issue is that... seriously... how often are my missed cbets getting raised!? it's rediculous. And how often are my pre flop raises getting 3bet!? rediculous. At these bloody stakes.... is 25nl going to be like 400nl was 3 years ago??

So i think i'm making a reasonable and stable win by just folding in those spots, but if i could play back, i'd be beating the stake better. I will say there's no point in 4betting here, once someone 3bets, the only time they will consider NOT calling a shove is if you're both deep stacked and you just shove over. But i've seen people still call with any PP. They're basically pot committed from the first 3bet. So you aint scaring them off or intimidating them. To them it's only a few bucks if they miss *shrug*

One last thing... tried 6-tabling recently. Wasn't too bad. Got up to 5 coz i was tightening up and settling down and then was card dead and perhaps a little impatient, so opened another. At least doing this hones your skills for then going back to 4-tabling.

[Jason]

You keep mentioning 3betting and how concerned you are with it. I still think you're over thinking it. I've played my last 13k hands @ $10NL and haven't noticed this rampant 3betting you keep referring to. At full ring at these stakes, you can pretty much profile, pot control, and nut peddle.

For example, the villain you described who 3 bets with AJo is likely highly exploitable and the type who you can take to value town for his stack with just TPTK. He should be profitable villain to play, not a tricky one. For the tight 10/7 villains who 3 bet into you, get out of the way, set hunt if they are deep, or smooth call and value own them with your aces and kings.

I just think if you're having trouble @ $10NL, that there are some widely fundamental concepts you can hone in on and 3betting just isn't near the top of the list.

[wonderland]

Some hands i liked:

Fuckin LOVE pwning fish that call with CRAP. Gives me such a hardon. Saw the full stack, saw the implied odds, shame i didn't take him with me but *shrug*

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO unomeornot ($2.50)
BTN maxbuckets ($9.85)
SB Hero ($10.25)
BB Kuginos420 ($1.60)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 4 players) Hero is SB
unomeornot calls $0.10, maxbuckets raises to $0.60, Hero calls $0.55, 1 fold, unomeornot calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.90, 3 players)
Hero checks, unomeornot checks, maxbuckets bets $0.20, Hero raises to $0.80, unomeornot calls $0.80, maxbuckets folds

Turn: ($3.70, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.20, unomeornot goes all-in $1.10

River: ($6, 2 players)

Final Pot: $5.90
unomeornot shows:
Hero shows:

Hero wins $5.75 ( won +$3.15 )
unomeornot lost -$2.50
maxbuckets lost -$0.80

-----------------------------------------------

Check it out... *i* rivered someone would YOU call a strong 3bet with 9Ts? At these stakes? with half a stack?

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG evan meox ($14.65)
UTG+1 Pinhead242 ($8.90)
CO CrystalBall9 ($10.00)
BTN EmoY1986 ($5.85)
SB Fun Terence ($6.05)
BB Hero ($10.10)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, CrystalBall9 raises to $0.30, EmoY1986 calls $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, CrystalBall9 folds, EmoY1986 calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.35, 2 players)
Hero checks, EmoY1986 checks

Turn: ($2.35, 2 players)
Hero bets $2.10, EmoY1986 goes all-in $4.85, Hero calls $2.75

River: ($12.05, 2 players)

Final Pot: $12.05
EmoY1986 shows:
Hero shows:

Hero wins $11.50 ( won +$5.65 )
EmoY1986 lost -$5.85
CrystalBall9 lost -$0.30

--------------------------------------------------------

This one is more technical. Villain is 75/25 over only 8 hands. Even for such a small sample, i usually can tell that most ok players usually fold the first 4 out of 5 hands. Vague but...

so i decide to check my weak J so that a) i don't get raised and therefore don't bloat the pot, not that i could continue to a raise anyway, and b) so that villain can exclude the J from my range completely. He bets small-ish so i call to evaluate the turn. Ace comes which obviously scares him. I call that too. The river bet was tricky. It felt like a weak bet that was designed to make missed draws fold rather than get value with an ace type hand or any decent hand. Read was about 60% confident.

In retrospect i would put a jack in his range. But the other thing was, that cbet could have just been him trying to take the pot down because we both checked. His cbet flop stat was 100% which maybe at the time i was aware of but didn't look the stat up then and there.



$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG evan meox ($4.25)
CO Pinhead242 ($10.00)
BTN mafia95as ($4.25)
SB maxikopat ($5.00)
BB Hero ($9.75)
[Pinhead242 posted $0.1]

Pre-flop: ($0.25, 5 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, Pinhead242 checks, mafia95as calls $0.10, maxikopat calls $0.05, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.40, 4 players)
maxikopat checks, Hero checks, Pinhead242 checks, mafia95as bets $0.30, maxikopat folds, Hero calls $0.30, Pinhead242 folds

Turn: ($1, 2 players)
Hero checks, mafia95as bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

River: ($1.20, 2 players)
Hero checks, mafia95as bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Final Pot: $2.20
Hero shows:
mafia95as shows:

Hero wins $2.10 ( won +$1.10 )
maxikopat lost -$0.10
Pinhead242 lost -$0.10
mafia95as lost -$1

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, overall things are good. Only lost one session this month if you exclude the one where i finished .25c down after losing a buy-in straight off, then clawed my way back to almost break even. I would not call that a loss!

Still, all the 3bets and raises are doing my brains in. Can barely see a flop.

[Keith]

33 hand is interesting and to a certain extent calling would be read dependent. I would probably have folded pre. Its a relatively large bet and although you have set odds you'll be playing the rest of the hand out of position. Ironic me playing it more conservatively than you

[wonderland]

Fuckin LIVE for set mining. I want to get any PP to the flop.

I won't call a large 3bet though, say i open 4x and someone makes it $1.20 to go, i fold anything there as you're trying to multiply .80c x 15. If there's another person to call before me i consider calling with only 10:1 implied as i have twice the chance of stacking plus the chance of double stacking.

See if you make your set, there's absolutely NO guarantee that you're stacking off, but in a 3bet pot your chances go right up. Hit the flop, check/call and before you know it, you're both teetering on the verge of pot commitment by the turn.

[Stacks]

The 33 hand was not a 3bet pot. And the call preflop is pretty marginal, and I would likely fold also. OOP makes it hard to extract, plus you have a shorty limping UTG, that could limp/shove or something like that and you lose your chance to see the flop.

As far as the flop, your c/r is wayyyyy too small. Flush and straight possibilities, and villain bet really small (which usually indicates a draw by these bad players), so your c/r gives him odds to call. Your just lucky maxbuckets is absolutely terrible, cbetting into 3 players and folding getting like 6.5:1 pot odds on a call.

AK hand is played fine, except your 3bet is not "STRONG" as you say. It's a relatively small squeeze size, and should be a bit larger (like $1.20ish). And the only thing that is terrible about his PF call is he is shortstacked. If he was full I wouldn't mind it (other than the fact you probably only 3bet the nuts here preflop).

J4 hand is fine.

[daven]

33 hand is awful. Fold pre. Lead flop as played. You "live for set mining and want to get any PP to the flop" and "love pawning fish that call with crap" - well, guess what. You need to make 9x the pre-fllop call size in profit from the hand to make the pre-flop call worthwhile longterm. You didn't..

AK hand is ok, but the 3-bet size is too small oop with a caller.

J4 hand is fine.

if the 3-bets and raising are causing problems, start to think about why this is. I doubt that there is that much 3-betting happening, but it's likely that there are less limped pots, good, it should get any lingering limping habits out of your game.

3 suggestions
1) Don't open limp anything.
2) Start varying your range more by position (tight UTG, looser nearer the button) so that 3-bets don't matter so much.
3) Post your position stats for all hands at 10nl

[wonderland]

33 hand is awful. Fold pre. Lead flop as played. You "live for set mining and want to get any PP to the flop" and "love pawning fish that call with crap" - well, guess what. You need to make 9x the pre-fllop call size in profit from the hand to make the pre-flop call worthwhile longterm. You didn't..

eh? well, how am i to know ahead of time if i'm going to get 9x? would people fold 66 here? 77?

The 33 hand was not a 3bet pot.

never said it was, i said i won't call a 3bet.

It just seems reasonable to me that a set beats TPTK, top 2 and has the potential for a full house and can get money in. Lower cards are also easier to discard if you miss.

I almost never open limp now. Starting to make the transition from open limp/call small PP to either raising them (meh) or open folding (meh). It's a pain, there's something to be said for all three to be fair, at this stake.

Here's a question or two: should i 3bet QQ (in general, i know it depends) and if i raise with AK and feel like i'm getting 3bet by a 40/10 with AJ kinda hands, should i 4bet? and also, is AK good enough to call open shoves from idiots? i've faced this a lot lately. I raise HU with AK, fish shoves.

[wonderland]

WHINE.

Ok, i need to sort this shit out.

So... been having a, some would say great time, i would say average time at 10nl. Those who say great would say so because over like a 6 week period i only had 10 losing days and 4 of them were below $3 loss. I would say average because i haven't had any mad multi buy-in wins like i hear other people get, not since early may had i secured any decent wins.

but since the uk bonus FPP thing, i got to silver star and... FINALLY... due to a june promo... was able to swap those for money! only $16 for 1000 but hey, that's 1.5 buy-ins i snapped it up and bought them immediately and watched my bankroll shoot over to $455. Ah, i was over the hump and on the way to the $500 mark. Been EXHAUSTING so far. 400 hands a night, many tantrums, not able to see the end in sight at all, grinding so slowly. That $16 was going to feed and clothe the destitute orphans of my bankroll. But i had earned it.

Then immediately after that, this happened:



All of it, plus some more, gone in at instant.

So that's poker. Fine. One gets it. But out of that has arisen a niggling issue. My rate has dropped an entire point to about 3.5 BB. My dream is to take that to 6 and, let's face it, it AINT gonna happen. So, let's see. I beat 5nl for about 9 or 10/100, i think 10 if i played 5nl for another few weeks solid. Then let's say i do well and beat 10nl for 5/100. What the hell am i to expect for 25, then 50, then 100??? I'd be getting 1/100 at 100nl if i was really lucky and worked hard. Or maybe i wouldn't get there at all, the grind being so slow i could die of old age in the process.

I can not emphasis how not easy 10nl is. It's a tagg fest, usually 1, maybe 2 fish at a table but then it soon fills right up with taggs again. Again.. fine... but is i'm starting to worry about the future prospects of online poker. Poker is only going to get tighter.

Should i switch to tournaments or live play or something??

Has anyone beaten 10nl recently. I want win rates and how many hands. Same for 25.

[daven]

Has anyone beaten 10nl recently. I want win rates and how many hands. Same for 25.

Can only give you 25 and 50nl, but hope that will be enough to stop your whining. This is me learning to play 6-max this month. The 50nl included a period where i dropped 4 buy-ins trying to apply something silly to my game.

[DaD01ng]

hey man, keep ya head up, 10NL can be easily beat, if ur not beating it then there's some obvious leaks in your game. Quit blaming the beats and coolers for your losses and start blaming your bad play and see how you can change your game to make it better.

As for your question, I started playing poker again on tuesday, since then then have played 5k hands and been beating 10NL for 18ptbb/100, that's including one session where I tilted and lost 4 buy-ins. I hope to keep my ptbb/100 at +10 until 50NL... But I dunno we'll see lol

I'll be watchin this blog intently :P, since ur aroud my level we could do sweat sessions together if u want, join IRC or PM me

[Jason]

I just updated my operation today as a matter of fact with numbers there. Just scroll to the bottom of my last post for all the stats.

I've said this before, but I think you're being too results oriented and trying to extrapolate a small sample to future results and there are too many fallacies with that logic. For one, your sample size is likely too low. Next, you will develop, stagnate, or regress as a player uniquely in a way that cannot be predicted. Also, the landscape of poker and other players will develop, stagnate, or regress uniquely in ways that cannot be predicted. Lastly, the difference between stakes cannot be easily quantified in terms of difficulty.

Your immediate and only goal should be to beat $10NL cash playing the best poker you can play and always trying to get better. Don't worry about $5NL UNLESS or UNTIL you drop down to that. Don't worry about $25NL UNLESS or UNTIL you move UP to that. Focus on the quality of your play. If you go all-in to a 300BB pot on the flop and have 5% equity and hit runner runner to win, that should make you feel worse than if you go all-in to a 300BB pot on the flop and have 95% equity and lose. I get the feeling that's not how you feel or approach your game.

If you actually like to play cash games online, I think you should stick with it. It has proven to be the best form of poker in terms of making money and purest form of poker in terms of developing your skills.

Not to turn this into a battle of which form of poker is best, but although tournaments ARE fun and widely covered, I consider them a novelty - you play, eat, sleep, and go to the bathroom on their schedule. It's much tougher to make a living and handle the variance and swings of busting on the bubble or min-cashing or losing 10 coin flips in a row or whatever. I don't consider cash games grinding, but I could see tournaments as a grind if you went to 9 in a row never cashing. Don't get me wrong, though, for anyone who plays or wants to play tournaments, they should play tournaments and I would not try to persuade them otherwise. They can definitely be fun.

I love live play for cash games, but let's face it, live play is single tabling online with a really bad Internet connection. It may be easier to get reads and the players are often worse, but the sheer volume of hands you can get in online plus the convenience of just sitting @ your computer wipes all those advantages away. Also, live play can be really frustrating when you're surrounded by fish in a juicy game and go card dead for 5 hours.

Good luck getting back on track.

[clvacva]

I wanna see the hands where you lost
was it bad beats/coolers or bad plays?
and why complain you only lost 2buyins in 600ish hands.
Isn't that like normal

[wonderland]

Balls.

I shouldn't have asked. Part of why i'm so tilty is because i see how better other people are doing at similar levels. Although in those end of the month reviews i do feel a little blessed because so many people have like an A shaped (or inverted V) graph or even a ' \ ' shaped graph.

But Jason, FOR FUK SAKE, 12BB/100, that's apeshit! that's 3 or 4 times my win rate. And the bitch is you talk about sample size... i've played 18k hands @ 10, 50k overall and you beat 10 in 20k hands! I started in May (playing 10nl) and forecast to beat it in bloody september. THAT's exhausting.

I seriously need a fuckin sweat. Thing is though, people who sweat me tell me i'm fairly solid, i wish i could say i have all these huge leaks. I do have leaks. I'm folding a bit too often and one or two times i've been shown worse cards. But i feel that's saved me more than cost me. I just know if someone bets with any certainty, they've got me beat unless i know full well they haven't. Even so, my reading skills can be frighteningly good. I put someone squarely on A6 today because the flop came down X66AX and i had a flush. I just knew they had it.

Anyway, thanks for the input, i need it. I also need some serious help because i can't be beating this stake for such a CRAP rate.

Help!

[Micro2Macro]

18k hands is like, a dent. Don't sweat it, worrying about your win rate is just stupid as it takes a very long time to articulate. That and over time your game will be changing, so it will never be a true reflection of your skill level.

[wonderland]

yeah, well the main reason win rate is important is because it tells me how fast i'm able to beat my stake. And motivation that diminishes. I.e. right now i'm due to see a 4 month micro stake.

I think i need to learn how to be laggy because often the problem is not being able to get much value from hands because everyone is tight enough. I hardly profit from hitting a set these days.

it's just mad to think that someone could be three times more profitable than me at 10nl while still having the same amount of total hands played. Jason, what site do you play? and is it full ring? would be interested to see how our game looks side by side.

[Jason]

yeah, well the main reason win rate is important is because it tells me how fast i'm able to beat my stake. And motivation that diminishes. I.e. right now i'm due to see a 4 month micro stake.

But see, that's just it - it DOESN'T tell you. You could easily forget all about your win rate, review some hand histories, have one or two epiphanies, spot two or three leaks, and "voila", you've tripled your "win rate" in possibly as little as a week. Or, you could stay the same or get worse for months on end. Who knows? Your focus should be on how to get better, not on what your or anyone's win-rate short term or long term is. If anything, be glad you're simply winning - if you throw a dart at 10 random poker players who play at tables with a rake, only 4 of them are winning at all on EVERY level $2NL all the way up to $10,000NL. The other 6 are long term losers with graphs that consistently go down.

I play full ring on Stars. My advice for improving would be to get back to basics. Your talk of moving up, win-rates, and 3-betting just tells me you're not in the best frame of mind. You want to find good tables, create a good image, get good reads, take good notes, and focus on good decisions. When a hand doesn't go well, you need to figure out what went wrong and not just assume you were coolered. When you WIN a hand, you need to figure out how you could have gotten more money in the pot.

How many tables do you play? I don't recommend more than 4 tables for anyone trying to learn the game, improve, and move up. Don't be a robot. Pay attention. Good luck. Hope that helps. You also may want to read the Poker Mindset again ... I think you may have skipped a chapter or two

[Keith]

I think i need to learn how to be laggy because often the problem is not being able to get much value from hands because everyone is tight enough. I hardly profit from hitting a set these days.

in that case you need to watch me play more lol.Monsieur chat will tell you that sitting to my left isn't a nice place to be.

[DaD01ng]

in that case you need to watch me play more lol.Monsieur chat will tell you that sitting to my left isn't a nice place to be.

this means ur a nit, but I think you're trying to say you're laggy... I'm not sure haha.

Anyways, yeah I agree with Jason, your frame of mind is not right. You shouldn't be looking at your bb/100 and be thinking that you'll stay at the micros for another 4 months, and also don't think that when you move up your bb/100 will become 1 or something. You should focus on improving your game and quit blaming your losses on coolers/beats like Jason said. Focus on your game and your winrate will increase as a consequence.

[wonderland]

But see, that's just it - it DOESN'T tell you. You could easily forget all about your win rate, review some hand histories, have one or two epiphanies, spot two or three leaks, and "voila", you've tripled your "win rate" in possibly as little as a week. Or, you could stay the same or get worse for months on end. Who knows? Your focus should be on how to get better, not on what your or anyone's win-rate short term or long term is. If anything, be glad you're simply winning - if you throw a dart at 100 random poker players who play at tables with a rake, only 4 of them are winning at all on EVERY level $2NL all the way up to $10,000NL. The other 6 are long term losers with graphs that consistently go down.

Gosh, i hope it IS that simple. Spotting some leaks and trippling my win rate.

Also, there was a typo there, throw a dart at 10 players? or 100? and is that 4 out of 100 or what? Either way i should at least feel lucky i'm winning. But poker means very little to me if i'm not winning well. I guess in short i should say i'm having a hard time locating my leaks. That's the statement for the month.

[Monsieur_chat]

lol Keith, it's not that bad. I was just card dead last night. And I know what you fold in the SB

Oh and Jason, I think I could use some of the frankly brilliant advice you're giving to wonder. Head on over to my op when you get a chance.

[daven]

I think i need to learn how to be laggy because often the problem is not being able to get much value from hands because everyone is tight enough. I hardly profit from hitting a set these days.

sorry, this is wrong.
You don't yet know how to play TAG abc, do not try and play LAG xyz, you'll get schooled

[Fnord]

You don't have to go too crazy to pick up dead money.

[Keith]

I'm folding a bit too often and one or two times i've been shown worse cards. But i feel that's saved me more than cost me. I just know if someone bets with any certainty, they've got me beat unless i know full well they haven't. Even so, my reading skills can be frighteningly good. I put someone squarely on A6 today because the flop came down X66AX and i had a flush. I just knew they had it.

did he show? post the hand so we can have a look at it

[wonderland]

Here's that hand. I figured A6 was in his limping range, then when he shoved the river i didn't have him on a flush. I just had a strong feeling he had A6, not any other 6 or the flush would have scared him. Note: i wouldn't normally call here, i just wanted to prove myself right.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG tomasado ($8.45)
UTG+1 Reion07 ($1.73)
CO lokoant ($2.63)
BTN BillCP ($1.98)
SB harrybarry4 ($3.13)
BB Hero ($12.94)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, Reion07 calls $0.05, 1 fold, BillCP calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.17, 3 players)
Hero bets $0.15, Reion07 calls $0.15, BillCP folds

Turn: ($0.47, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.45, Reion07 calls $0.45

River: ($1.37, 2 players)
Hero checks, Reion07 goes all-in $1.08, Hero calls $1.08

Final Pot: $3.53
Hero shows:
Reion07 shows:

Reion07 wins $3.38 ( won +$1.65 )
BillCP lost -$0.05
Hero lost -$1.73

--------------------------

This was a hand i was proud of. Knew what i had to do, didn't want to but had to. First raiser was a fairly solid player, caller was a fishy shorty. I wanted to iso the fish and knew i had to make the 3bet big enough to guarantee a fold from Mr tagg. Which i got, and wanted shorty to not give me any tricky decisions on the flop, so there'd be very little left of his stack to warrant a fold. Also knew he'd call pretty much. First guy did take a while to fold though.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG crocost ($2.35)
CO dexter0829 ($6.00)
BTN kamiKOZe21 ($9.45)
SB rubelen ($2.20)
BB Hero ($15.70)
[dexter0829 posted $0.1]

Pre-flop: ($0.25, 5 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, dexter0829 checks, kamiKOZe21 raises to $0.40, rubelen calls $0.35, Hero raises to $1.80, dexter0829 folds, kamiKOZe21 folds, rubelen calls $1.40

Flop: ($4.10, 2 players)
rubelen goes all-in $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

SNAP CALL

Turn: ($4.90, 2 players)

River: ($4.90, 2 players)

Final Pot: $4.90
rubelen shows:
Hero shows:

Hero wins $4.70 ( won +$2.50 )
dexter0829 lost -$0.10
kamiKOZe21 lost -$0.40
rubelen lost -$2.20

-------------------

This hand broke my fuckin HEART. SNAP called the river. See my new thing of checking a fat hand was bound to bite me in the ass sooner or later. I just could not believe what he called my 3bet with, and then my turn bet. So from now on i cbet if... there are two suits or two broadways. This is the thing see, one of my biggest hands to lose to is QT. People call with any broadway and a ten. So if you have AA or similar, even if you hit your set and you have one more broadway there, you have to end that action. Or then again, the odds of them making their straight could be so slim that it's worth slow playing?

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO runya80 ($4.65)
BTN Hero ($4.89)
SB vollu ($2.70)
BB MtMM7 ($11.60)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 4 players) Hero is BTN
runya80 raises to $0.20, Hero raises to $0.65, vollu calls $0.63, 1 fold, runya80 folds

Flop: ($1.55, 2 players)
vollu checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.55, 2 players)
vollu checks, Hero bets $0.95, vollu calls $0.95

River: ($3.45, 2 players)
vollu goes all-in $1.10, Hero calls $1.10

Final Pot: $5.65
Hero shows:
vollu shows:

vollu wins $5.40 ( won +$2.70 )
runya80 lost -$0.20
Hero lost -$2.70

-------------------------------------------------

Final Notes.

I open 66 UTG and get 3bet BIG about 50% of the time. Thoughts?

Me and Keith were talking about the 'starting tables' thing. Sure A fish joins, but then so do 4 taggs. Or 4 short stacks to make it 5 short stacks. All wanting to play $2 chicken. So from now on i will join good full stacked tables... i think.... i am finding it difficult fish farming these days. Thoughts?

[Keith]

A6 hand .....don't think many would have got away from that .
QQ.... I'd probably have gone $1.40 , seems a bit silly to price out the full stack with a larger 3bet than normal and keep the shortie in . Just makes sure that you win the least .
KK ... I'd have gone to 80 pre and 1.20 on the flop. All you did was let him draw cheaply to his str8. betting the flop lets him decide on drawing for his stack on the turn .

low PP UTG ....looking through my stats low PP UTG were losing when I opened them and then you get 3bet and usually lose your set odds . I swapped back to limping them UTG and calling a raise whilst I still had set odds.

[wonderland]

10nl, how to play QQ against shorty fish.

Hand 1.

I knew the guy would get a bit hot under the collar and shove, or at least i wanted him to. Raised more than 3x coz there was a loose guy sat in between us. His call was ok it turns out but again highlights the issue of calling/4betting with 'that hand'. Hate that hand, don't feel comfortable without something paired.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Theo the man ($3.15)
UTG+1 MakeYourself ($10.15)
CO PharPhar ($7.50)
BTN Danblaze ($12.85)
SB Hero ($16.15)
BB klxx ($13.20)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is SB
Theo the man raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.10, 1 fold, Theo the man goes all-in $3.15, Hero calls $2.05

Flop: ($6.40, 2 players)

Turn: ($6.40, 2 players)

River: ($6.40, 2 players)

Final Pot: $6.40
Hero shows:
Theo the man shows:

Hero wins $6.10 ( won +$2.95 )
Theo the man lost -$3.15

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hand 2.

Same table, this happened before the above hand. Another 3bet where i was happy to get it all in. Villain was 58/11 over 36 hands. Once i saw the flop I just thought, fuckit, there's no use betting like $2 or anything, so i put him all in.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG weedology420 ($3.75)
CO Alliinwith22 ($13.15)
BTN NERO1974 ($2.15)
SB Danblaze ($14.30)
BB Hero ($12.05)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is BB
weedology420 raises to $0.40, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.20, weedology420 calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.45, 2 players)
Hero bets $3.10, weedology420 goes all-in $2.55

Turn: ($8.10, 2 players)

River: ($8.10, 2 players)

Final Pot: $7.55
Hero shows:
weedology420 shows:

Hero wins $7.75 ( won +$3.45 )
weedology420 lost -$3.75
--------------------------------------------------------

Played better tonight after watching a grinderschool video by sugarnut. Just conscious of ranges, and again, bet sizing. Often he'd just put villains all-in who were either fishy, knew their weaker calling range or short stacked or both. Also played a mere 3 tables at once. Cutting back.

Question is: what do we do in general with QQ against deep stacks? fish and/or regs?

[daven]

The 45s vs A6 hand is played fine.

QQ hand. Why didn't you want to 3-bet pre? this is standard. You also don't "want to guarantee a fold from Mr tagg" - you want him to have a difficult decision when you are obviously ahead of his range. Nothing wrong if he calls JJ/AK etc. Nice hand.

KK. Bet flop. As played bet turn harder. You don't have to "end the action" when you have a set and the flop is broadway-rich, you just have to get the money in ahead.
as for 66 UTG facing a 3-bet "50% of the time". This is great. It means that when you open AA UTG you face a 3-bet half the time. More likely it's sample size. Fold 66 here anyway.

as for the QQ against shortstack fish, get it in pre if you can otherwise on any non-ace flop. As for hating AK, do some poker-stove stuff. Why do you like TT more than AK pre? Just because you are relying on a card coming to improve your hand DOES NOT mean that it is a bad hand. Stats are stats are stats and online poker is unlikely rigged for AK vs 22-QQ situations...

QQ vs 100bb at 10nl. 3-bet out of position always. Call or 3-bet depending on opponent's ranges/reads. Get it in vs aggro fish. Be prepared to fold vs passive fish. Etc...

[wonderland]

Cheers Daven, i need the feedback. Yeah, obviously i've been coming out of a basics/noobs school of 3betting, so my 3bet range was only AA or KK.

Then Dranger told me to 3bet AK which i started to really suffer for, and someone else told me they don't like AK and i thought - ah, that's what i've been thinking too. I mean in terms of getting in big raises/calling short stack shoves etc. I will open up against a 60/30 kind of player though.

gah, HAAATE folding pp. Gonna limp call for a while until i actually hate limp/calling.

Oh, yeah the reason i just hated the 3bet is coz i'm a nervous player. Hate bloating a pot coz A or K will scare me on a flop.

Been watching my oop plays lately, i think that's been a leak. Was on top of that for a while then forgot it again. I just know i don't want to be calling AJ/AQ oop against a tight player.

No one answered my question about what to do when i raise with AK then get 3bet? Say i'm OOP in the CO and BU 3bets me.

[Luco]

4bet ldo

[daven]

gah, HAAATE folding pp. Gonna limp call for a while until i actually hate limp/calling.

short-handed i never open fold pocket pairs - maybe i will if i'm at the type of table where it makes sense to, but that hasn't happened yet.
Full-ring I'm happy to open fold 22-77 in EP most(!?) of the time.

Been watching my oop plays lately, i think that's been a leak.

playing post-flop out of position is hard. So we try to do it as infrequently as possible. And with hands that make for polarised post-flop hand strength (i.e. hands that are easy to fold or easy to want to get our money in)

No one answered my question about what to do when i raise with AK then get 3bet? Say i'm OOP in the CO and BU 3bets me.

if the button 3-bets your CO steal with AK:
1) put villain on a range
2) if AK is ahead of the range then go ahead and 4-bet or call. Calling means treading carefully on flops without an ace or king though
3) if AK is behind the range then fold
4) if you don't really know, then fold i guess.

In position it's different, but only if you have reason to believe that villain is 3-betting wider than AA/KK...

[wonderland]

if the button 3-bets your CO steal with AK:
1) put villain on a range
2) if AK is ahead of the range then go ahead and 4-bet or call. Calling means treading carefully on flops without an ace or king though
3) if AK is behind the range then fold
4) if you don't really know, then fold i guess.

Yeah, this made me think about Ak actually. In my experience, people are usually 3betting pairs from tens upward and NEVER folding to a 4bet unless maybe it's a shove. Or they just so happened to be attempting a 3bet with trash as a bluff. I mean AK is an underdog to any pair so meh.

Been running ok lately. Last three sessions/days i've come out with almost a buy-in per day. So, a quick roundup:

Current BR: $466 (almost ten buy-ins up since starting this op)
Win Rate: 4.15 PTBB (meh, won't be able to get out of ten until it's at least 6)
Stats: 18.03/12.11/3.3 over 19.5k hands. Slooowly converging. It is actually 18.18/13.65 for this month so far.

So i've been playing less tables, 3-4 and really asking myself every hand: before i call/raise

1. what are the stack sizes?
2. how loose/tight are the villain/s?
3. (recently and perhaps most importantly) will i be OOP?

Quite obvious but i'd been slacking a little of late and mainly just playing my cards. Also starting to rep more hands of late. I have been betting scary boards in unraised pots from bb and been successful about 3/4 of the time. If i raise and the flop is monosuit, i bet full pot quite a bit, unless maybe i totally whiff it completely. People just can't continue without a damn good reason. Even with pocket pairs and straight draws.

Shall post some hands maybe tomorrow.

[wonderland]

Can a moderator close this thread/op please.

thanks.

[BooG690]

Whoa whoa whoa. We can't close this thread without an update! What happened?

[wonderland]

i won a million dollars playing 10nl.

100,000 buy-ins running hot.

i'm retiring.

well... i don't know. I need some time away. I just can't see me making any realistic wins at poker. 10nl should never be this hard to beat. So fucknows how i'm supposed to beat other stakes.

I'm exhausted. I force myself to play, feeling nauseous at the thought and win a basic amount over time while everyone else seems to destroy. Fine, i'm winning. But it's taking so long it's crippling my enthusiasm and spirit.

[Jason]

If it's any motivation, keep in mind I've only logged 2k hands, but so far I am finding $25NL much easier and profitable for my style @ least than $10NL. $10NL seems much nittier and harder to extract money by comparison. DO NOT interpret that as an invitation to move up too soon, but rather, don't think that things necessarily get incrementally harder. Hopefully that'll be motivation to stick with $10NL and move up.

[bjsaust]

I went through this kind of thing a while back, it was 50nl but it still felt like the same kind of 'getting nowhere fast' thing. I stopped focusing on the money, and just played to have fun. I still want to win, but because its fun, not because I want to earn X per month or move up within Y timeframe or something.

If you keep playing, stop trying to force things. Play when you feel like it, play the amount of tables you have fun playing, stop when its not fun. Play good poker for the challenge of playing good poker, not to achieve a certain goal.