Sleeping Patterns

[Pascal]

I read this earlier:

Sleep (or how to hack your brain) + Dustin Curtis

I'd love to be able to cut down the amount of time I sleep and this says just one daily nap of 20 minutes saves 2 hours of sleeping. Any one tried anything similar?

[MadMojoMonkey]

There is no research, just prior knowledge in this post.

I've heard that the human body needs 2 complete R.E.M. cycles in ~24 hours. Generally most of us get 2 R.E.M. cycles per 6 - 8 hours of sleep.

I don't think it's possible to get a R.E.M. cycle in under ~3 hours. The sleep process occurs in stages, and the deep sleep required to achieve R.E.M. takes time.

I know a number of people who claim to only sleep 5 hours a night. The thing they don't claim is that they sleep in on the weekends for about 3 - 4 hours each day.

The point is that you have willpower and you can push yourself beyond your normal running parameters, but eventually, your body will get what it needs.

Also, naps make me cranky and more tired than before I took them, so I'm perfectly biased against any theory that promotes napping.

[spoonitnow]

lol @ calling every fucking thing in the world a hack these days

[givememyleg]

lol @ calling every fucking thing in the world a hack these days

ya that shit is annoying.

[spoonitnow]

ya that shit is annoying.

here's a cool rock hack to make a paper weight!

[Galapogos]

Here's a cool rock hack to make a paper weight!

I hacked your post to capitalize that 'H'.

[Poopadoop]

When I was in a college I had one term where all my classes were in the morning. I slept 3-6 am then 3-6 in the afternoon. Never felt better.

p.s. this guy and his 28 hour cycle sounds FOS to me. Millions if not billions of years of evolving towards a 24ish hr cycle and somehow he gets a mutant circadian rhythm that's FOUR hours off? Gtfo please.

[givememyleg]

i halfheartedly tried polyphasic once a few years ago and made it 32 hours. Polyphasic Sleep – One Year Later is an interesting summary of a guy who did it for 6 or so months. it just seems like it would be such a huge change, especially socially.

i've never had a solid sleep schedule although it's probably mainly behavioral than anything else. overall i always tend to feel most rested when i fall into a bi-phasic pattern of sleeping for 4 hours during the day and 4 hours at night. i also quite often feel the need to sleep for 12-14 hours some days, maybe because i'm lacking sleep, or maybe because i'm just fucking lazy.

[NightGizmo]

I looked into this a long time ago, and from everything I found it seemed like the polyphasic (short nap only) sleep schedule is unsustainable. I don't feel like looking around for references, but here are highlights of what I learned about sleep:

1. How much sleep you need varies from person to person -- some people need 6 hours a day, some need 10. The average is about 8.
2. More important than how much sleep you need is the quality of the sleep you get. The link from OP is right, REM sleep is important, but I don't think you can ignore the other parts (if the full sleep cycle wasn't needed, why didn't evolution eliminate it from some species? That would be a huge advantage).
3. A full sleep cycle varies by person, but on average it's about 90 minutes (give or take 30 minutes). REM occurs at the end of each sleep cycle. Pay attention to the time when you wake up in the middle of the night -- you can easily figure out your own cycle length (mine is right about 90 minutes).
4. Short naps are good for temporarily restoring energy/alertness, but they do not catch you up on your sleep. The "siesta" sleep pattern in the OP link won't work well long-term because you're cheating your body out of a sleep cycle each day. That will catch up to you in a few days. Also, calling it a "siesta" is bullshit -- in countries that use siestas (Spain, Italy, Greece, etc.) they set aside about 2 hours for mid-day sleeping.
5. It's a bad idea to take a nap longer than about 30-45 minutes but shorter than your normal sleep cycle. You will wake up feeling very groggy (it's called sleep inertia) and you wouldn't have had a full restorative sleep cycle.

About the polyphasic sleep in the OP: it was a pattern designed by a ship captain that was trying to make a long voyage by himself (crossing the Atlantic, maybe?). In general, that sleep pattern is useful for long periods where you need to stay awake but you do not need to be mentally sharp (your mind will not operate anywhere near normal waking levels). It is not meant to be a sleep pattern for normal life.

FYI, I stick to the traditional siesta sleep schedule (aka biphasic sleep). It's pretty simple -- I sleep about 6 hours at night and I take a 1.5 hour nap after work (working from home makes that very easy). I get a total of 7.5 hours of sleep per day and I'm pretty much always alert and awake. And since I started doing that (about 8 years ago) I find that I usually wake up before my alarm, something I never used to be able to do.

One last comment (wow, this is long already). If you can, you should schedule your sleep to be in multiples of your sleep cycle. I always plan my sleep that way now. Being interrupted in the middle of your sleep cycle causes sleep inertia, making your morning very tough. Plus it's just a waste of your time -- if your alarm goes off 45 minutes into your sleep cycle, your body doesn't count those 45 minutes as restorative sleep -- you might as well have woken up 45 minutes earlier (and felt more alert when you woke up).

[NightGizmo]

Also, a great quote from Winston Churchill about naps:

You must sleep some time between lunch and dinner, and no half-way measures. Take off your clothes and get into bed. That's what I always do. Don't think you will be doing less work because you sleep during the day. That's a foolish notion held by people who have no imagination. You will be able to accomplish more. You get two days in one-well, at least one and a half, I'm sure.

[BennyLaRue]

Hacking a brain

[swiggidy]

The 20 min power nap is fantastic. I only do one nap around 6p, and only when it feels necessary, but it definitely helps because I don't sleep enough during the week anyway.

[kingnat]

I have no ability to nap. There are a few times that I will feel so completely awful from lack of sleep that I'll pass out for a while, but laying down to "take a 20 minute nap" is inconceivable for me. I would have to set an alarm to avoid sleeping for an hour+, and I just can't fall asleep. How do people do this?

[a500lbgorilla]

I don't take naps. The world skips ahead.

[jackvance]

I generally sleep so little (only a few hours) that I actually went to see a doctor to get some help on how to sleep longer. Exception is when I get drunk, then I can sleep 10+ hours. It's not that great to never really feel refreshed.

[donkbee]

I generally sleep so little (only a few hours) that I actually went to see a doctor to get some help on how to sleep longer.

Did going to the doctor help?

[jackvance]

Did going to the doctor help?

For the most part, she prescibed me some pill to get a better extended sleep. The first time I took it, I went unconscious almost immediately and slept 16 hours straight. Now i still tend to wake up after 3-5 hours of sleep but i can fall asleep again to get decent hours.

[donkbee]

Exercise will start asap, sounds like awesome advice rpm - thanks a lot

join our 18 lap gauntlet bet and you will be sure to exercise!

[BennyLaRue]

Yeah, I want help. Fell asleep at 9 last night. Woke up at 4. MFer.

[rpm]

yo pascal. i've had similar troubles for years. particularly when i was doing my undergraduate. and while i have tried drugs and things to help push me back into routine, the only thing that has worked for me (while ive been able to sustain it, typically not long) is just doing as much exercise as your body can handle through the day so you start to feel tired early, and then using that to get your body/brain used to falling asleep pre-midnight and rising pre-8am, or whatever your goal is.

ps you have no idea how much i hate to admit that ^

[Icanhastreebet]

yo pascal. i've had similar troubles for years. particularly when i was doing my undergraduate. and while i have tried drugs and things to help push me back into routine, the only thing that has worked for me (while ive been able to sustain it, typically not long) is just doing as much exercise as your body can handle through the day so you start to feel tired early, and then using that to get your body/brain used to falling asleep pre-midnight and rising pre-8am, or whatever your goal is.

ps you have no idea how much i hate to admit that ^

...The best way to fix a sleep schedule is to wake up on the time you want to get up, no matter what and not be a lazy fuck who sleeps in even if they don't want to. If it's too difficult to go to sleep 4am and wake up 8am try waking up 10am and start waking up earlier.

Going to sleep earlier does NOTHING even if you get to sleep, your body still wants to sleep until the normal time you usually wake up. So if you work out say for a few hours or w/e and go to sleep a few hours earlier then normal you will probably just end up sleeping 12hours because your body is exhausted. I do not see how that could ever fix a sleep schedule.

[rpm]

Going to sleep earlier does NOTHING even if you get to sleep, your body still wants to sleep until the normal time you usually wake up. So if you work out say for a few hours or w/e and go to sleep a few hours earlier then normal you will probably just end up sleeping 12hours because your body is exhausted. I do not see how that could ever fix a sleep schedule.

so you're saying it's equally difficult to get up at 8am after 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 hours sleep?

edit: obviously nothing will work if you simply refuse to get out of bed at the target time. but getting enough sleep definitely makes doing that a lot easier

[rpm]

and, if possible, avoiding alcohol/cigarettes/caffeine/any recreational drugs you may like to indulge in after like 5 or 6pm. cigarettes aren't so bad in my experience. the others are

[Pascal]

It's got worse the last few days, staying up til 4am and waking up at midday. I'm too tired to really function properly but I'm not sleepy and don't want to spend hours lying in bed staring at the ceiling.

Exercise will start asap, sounds like awesome advice rpm - thanks a lot

[rpm]

no problemmo. hope you profit from it

[jyms]

Working out at a fairly high intensity will help you get into a better/deeper sleep and not allow you to wake up as easily. It also improves the actual quality of sleep and not the length. Good sleep is about restful sleep, and finding the right length of sleep is trial and error.

Artificial light like TV's, computers and cell phones will wreck early sleep patterns and make many people have hard times getting to sleep. It fucks with circadian rythms. A lot of "dirty" electricity is starting to be blamed for sleep problems too. Electrical appliances near you when sleeping like alarm clocks, laptops and cell phones turned on and charging and also electrical wiring in the walls that have open curcuits to other areas may have a lot of electricity running through them. So many things effect sleep.

FWIW, I have had great success with several clients with just supplementing 325mg of magnesium 2-3 times day during meals and magnesium with 20mgs of zinc a half hour before bed. Then just eliminating any artificial light 1/2 hr before bed to let the eyes adjust

[Poopadoop]

Then just eliminating any artificial light 1/2 hr before bed to let the eyes adjust

Interesting idea, and don't doubt that it works. But who really wants to sit in the dark for 1/2 hour before going to bed? Or is there another way to accomplish this?

[jyms]

I wasn't talking about light bulbs, the light coming from screens on TV's, phones and monitors is different than a 60 watt light bulb in the bathroom or bedroom. Go brush your teeth, read a book, make some caffeine free tea or prepare your lunch for tomorrow. Don't just shut off stuff or get out of your computer chair and climb into bed. Routines help, get the body prepared to sleep. Don't use your cell phone and set the alarm as you go to bed. And don't lie in bed and text or read an email. Make the bedroom a place of rest and relaxation.

[donkbee]

I wasn't talking about light bulbs, the light coming from screens on TV's, phones and monitors is different than a 60 watt light bulb in the bathroom or bedroom. Go brush your teeth, read a book, make some caffeine free tea or prepare your lunch for tomorrow. Don't just shut off stuff or get out of your computer chair and climb into bed. Routines help, get the body prepared to sleep. Don't use your cell phone and set the alarm as you go to bed. And don't lie in bed and text or read an email. Make the bedroom a place of rest and relaxation.

yeah this works for me. I was having a lot of problems with waking up in the middle of the night and not being able to fall asleep again, and it was eliminated when I stopped looking at screens for an hour before bed.

[BennyLaRue]

Rubbing one out helps.

[eugmac]

So I just flew back from Toronto to Berlin, a 6 hour timezone difference. Evening flight and I can't sleep on planes, and because of an eternal stopover in London I got back pretty late in the evening (Berlin time) the next day. I've essentially missed a night's sleep and feel pretty shitty. So, I have both sleep deprivation and jet lag to fight. Do I nap now (it's 3 pm) and try to recover energy, or do I stay up until my normal sleep time and try to reset my body clock?

edit: I'm gonna nap despite fiancee telling me otherwise. I'll let you know how it pans out...

[eugmac]

update, i made sure to sleep 1.5 hours so I do one full deep-sleep cycle and my alarm went off in rem sleep where i'm dreaming about i'm playing violin really shockingly bad in a rehearsal and then the twat conductor who i hate (he's like my age) is telling me after the rehearsal how i need to shape up and i'm like dude f u, ever heard of giving somebody the benefit of the doubt? then i was being chased by a female cop, she was in a car and i was on a bike and i was ruh roh i will be pwned so i jump off the bike and leap down some stairs into the subway station and then my alarm went off and that's my rem sleep story.