TT on a 5 handed FT

[Fjaman]

Stacksizes:
Hero 220k
Villain 245k
Blinds:
4k-8k 900 ante starting pot 16.5k

We are 5 handed and villain is UTG and raises to 20k, Hero picks up 1010 on the Button, your move?

[drmcboy]

other stack sizes?

stats?

reads?

these matter all the time but so important at the FT

[Fjaman]

The other stack sizes is the chipleader with 350k and the shortstack with 160k and another 200k stack, no stats, no villain is a standard TAG, had shown down 77, A10 and KQs previously, hadnt been esp active the last 2 round since he knocked out a shortstack...

The reasoning i had in this hand was:
Call:
+doesnt commit alot of your stack
+Uses your pos. advantage
-Weak passive play
-Overcards will most likely flop, what then ?
Raise:
+Gets rid of small pairs and raggy aces
+Good aggressive play
-Commits atleast a quarters of your stack, why not push?
-Raise fold 1010 5 handed ?
All in
+ Good aggressive play
+Pushes out worse hands and some coinflip hands
-Your fucked against JJ+ and your tournament is over

[fjuanl]

With your reads I like flatting best. 3betting puts a lot of pressure on him and it seems like you don't expect him to 4bet bluff or call 3bets light. Call if the 20BB stack in the blind squeezes and UTG folds

I think this would be really interesting vs a LAG or with a bad image. If it were in the mid-stages I like 3bet/calling, but that might not be the best at final tables due to ICM. If theres a lot of stacks you cover at a FT, you really don't want to enduce shoves from broadways. If you shove preflop he has to fold most broadways, probably up to AJo. He'd also have to fold a lot of hands TT dominates, so there is a downside (stuff like 22-77, A8o, QTs)

[baudib]

I think calling is best but it would suck if we invite BB to come along.

[Fjaman]

I think calling is best but it would suck if we invite BB to come along.

Yeah calling is my least favorite option, giving the big blind 5:1 on a call is not the right way to go here.
At the table i thought pushing was the way to go since there were no obvious shortstacks that were just on the verge of being eliminated and that you can increase your stack by 20% by making him fold and cementing your chip position...
When it comes down to it there are only 4 hands that beat you outright here.

What are you hoping to accomplish with just calling here, except preserving your stack, and what do you do with the 10s post flop if 1 or 2 OC flop call fold on the turn after you´ve lost 1/4 of your stack ?

[Im_new]

This is a toughie...

A call makes it so difficult to play postflop. Calling means that you're going to turn TT into a bluff on a lot of boards given your position. If you're willing to take that risk, (ie. shoving over cbets on weak boards, shoving versus an overcard, etc.) I'd prefer call.

If not, I shove it and feel shitty when he turns up JJ+.

[drmcboy]

calling seems best if you are OK playing flop, if not I think a small 3 bet is better than a shove. Don't fold.

I doubt given read this guy is going to be two barreling missed flops so I think post flop plays relatively easy. If BB comes along you get OK price on set/over pair, also it will be much harder for the raiser to c bet without a hand and if they check to you your bet will get more credit.

If nothing else you should be OPRing everyone at the FT, and I also recommend a HUD. If you aren't going to use a HUD, you should have much better reads than this at a final table.

[atlantafalcons0]

I would fold.

It's either 50/50 or you're dead.

Pick your poison.

It really matters a lot how many chips the other players have.

Is the BB short stacked or chipleader?

What about the small blind?

[Im_new]

calling seems best if you are OK playing flop, if not I think a small 3 bet is better than a shove. Don't fold.

what are we 3betting to? I juggled this one around a bit and couldn't find the balance... I thought to pop it up to 52K, but that's almost 1/4 of our stack...when he calls, what's his range here?

[baudib]

yeah I think if you 3-bet, somewhere between 45-50k is good. he should fold out a lot of overs that have good equity against us. I don't see why it's a problem sticking 1/5th our stack in with TT.

[Fjaman]

45k!? i would call that reraise with any 2 if i raised it first he´s gettin 25K to win 56k, he must have you on a really tight range to fold to those odds
bigger 3 bets kinda commits you, and if he calls en the flop comes with an over, you still have to Cont. bet it commiting you even further...
I do understand the reasons for calling, playing it safe preserving the stack, try to edge the shortstack out, but if you are playing to win isnt a push preferable here ???
Atlantafalcon, the reason for the push is to get alot of the 50/50 hands out of the pot and win it outright

[atlantafalcons0]

45k!? i would call that reraise with any 2 if i raised it first he´s gettin 25K to win 56k, he must have you on a really tight range to fold to those odds
bigger 3 bets kinda commits you, and if he calls en the flop comes with an over, you still have to Cont. bet it commiting you even further...
I do understand the reasons for calling, playing it safe preserving the stack, try to edge the shortstack out, but if you are playing to win isnt a push preferable here ???
Atlantafalcon, the reason for the push is to get alot of the 50/50 hands out of the pot and win it outright

If that guy raised utg he is expecting to get all his chips in.

Whats the worst hand he would raise utg?

AQ? You think any hand will get folded to our shove?

NO WAY. ace king WONT fold. And that's one of the WORST starting

hands he has. (probably up against jacks or better)

That's why I fold there.

LMAO @ 3bet.

[chardrian]

stats, reads, etc. are all helping us define his range.

This is a pretty gross spot since we are only 30 BBs deep. It's 5 handed so his opening range is likely much wider.

I can see an argument for commiting ourselves be raising to like 75k, I can see an argument for shoving pre, and I can see an argument for flatting pre and playing postflop.

There is no way I am folding TT here unless I know that villain is an absolute nit.

[fulksy]

If that guy raised utg he is expecting to get all his chips in.

Whats the worst hand he would raise utg?

AQ? You think any hand will get folded to our shove?

NO WAY. ace king WONT fold. And that's one of the WORST starting

hands he has. (probably up against jacks or better)

That's why I fold there.

LMAO @ 3bet.

you think opponent is open folding 99 5 handed?

i like flatting and getting it in on a set/over pair. without reads i think he's raising 66+ A10+ KQ. shoving folds out all the hands we dominate,and were not folding out any hands were behind. + we have position so post flop isn't super tricky.

[taipan168]

Apologies for coming late to this thread, but although I can see the merits of either 3-betting or shoving, I think I would flat, use our position and see a flop. We almost have correct implied odds to play for set value here and whilst I'm not advocating turning our hand into 22, surely we can re-evaluate after the flop and seeing opp's action?

If we 3-bet and get shoved over, we pretty much have to fold, and if our 3-bet gets flatted, overcards hit on the flop and opp comes out firing we have to fold as well. By shoving, I think we pretty much guarantee that we fold out most hands that we beat.

[drmcboy]

I hope you aren't calling a 50k 3 bet with your entire opening range OOP vs a good player. Pot odds matter but so do the rest of the streets.

I know that aggressive play = good play is drilled into your mind early and it's mostly true, but it's a lot more gray than that. Sometimes the (second) most passive play you can make is shoving so you don't have to play any poker.

Calling isn't the safest play unless you're just going to give up without a set. I would say the safest play is shoving because almost always you'll get folds. But I don't think it makes the most chips.

[atlantafalcons0]

So even if the small blind or big blind is monster stacked you still shove?

The only plays to me are call/fold.

That's just me though - It all depends on past hands with this player - if I had the right read I might shove or 3 bet.

With no reads or stack size information I fold this everytime.