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 Originally Posted by Wikkiwikki
I dont like Guessing where Im at. 3 betting Pre defines his hand. He could be open raising with Pocket 7's -we only have 50 hands on him. Re-raising lets me eliminate A-A and K-K if he shoves over we can fold - sure maybe we fold to A-K on occasion too but so what. Once the flop hits, Pokerstove Q- Q vs the same range but remove A-A K-K. (sorry I dont have it with me). Pretty sure your crushing.
Rather fold to the shove pre then to be guessing if Im good and playing weak scared the rest of the hand.
I guess my point is if he doesn't shove pre (and he didnt) you are good so bet for strong value the rest of the way.
This was my reasoning behind the 3bet pre- as well.
Pretty much eliminates AA and KK as they don't often flat pre, especially at these stakes;
Also, I wouldn't eliminate AJs or necessarily ATs depending what his exact range is:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.069% 65.61% 01.46% 276376440 6137676.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 32.931% 31.47% 01.46% 132574992 6137676.00 { QQ-TT, AJs+, AQo+ }
So I agree with everything pretty much but not 3-betting here pre, aside from the fact that (which I excluded from my original discussion) The players between he and I are something like 60/5/50 and 65/15/30, the dynamics of the table tend to make me 3-bet/fold unless I'm drawing in this case, but even with a normal range of opponents, I think I'm 3 betting here, so I don't have to flat the flop. Also, I think I'd find out fast whether or not he was holding TT. Advantage of playing deep is I still have enough of a stack to fold to a shove when I raise the flop.
Notably: based on the pokerstove I presented, I'm getting even money on my 3-bet IMO, but it allows me to play better post-flop, since i'm getting 67-32 (~ 2:1) if he doesn't 4bet. If he 4 bets, he had AA or KK most likely, and my stack is protected once I fold. if he doesn't, i can pretty much eliminate AA or KK, and I get to continue play with a limited range, which doesn't exclude much of his raising range, except the top end. due to the massively larger number of combinations of his non- AA, KK hands, and the difference this makes in my post-flop EV, I still opt for my 3-bet preflop. if his range included AA or KK versus not including AA or KK...
Post flop::
(4s Th 3c)
With AA, KK::
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.728% 56.73% 01.00% 168483 2970.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 42.272% 41.27% 01.00% 122577 2970.00 { TT+, AJs+, AQo+ }
Without AA, KK::
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 73.311% 71.99% 01.32% 162507 2970.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 26.689% 25.37% 01.32% 57273 2970.00 { QQ-TT, AJs+, AQo+ }
This is why I tend to advocate for 3-betting, especially since we see many players 3-betting with a more polarized range than his 3-bet calling range here at 2NL
I appreciate the large discussion this has generated though  makes me happy.
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