These people are our future

[a500lbgorilla]

I like this. Both that order yields wealth and consumers destroy it.

Of all the combinations of the trees, a house is better than a mishmash of lumber like a pile, or a tall stack of wood.

But the idea that new money is created doesn't make sense to me. If the tomatoes are grown, that means that something else isn't grown, and beyond that something is taken from the world to create those tomatoes, so even their wealth creation is coupled with some negative wealth in some sense.

Unless wealth is born only to be destroyed. Hmm, I'm liking this more and more as I think on it.

Whatever it takes to make the tomatoes, to make the sauce, to make the meal that you enjoy at Restaurant XYZ, it builds in "value", in "order", until you finally destroy it all for a fee.

But that still means that wealth is a zero sum game, we just hope the wealth created is in Man's hands and the wealth destroyed is shouldered by infinite reservoirs.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Unless wealth is born only to be destroyed. Hmm, I'm liking this more and more as I think on it.

Whatever it takes to make the tomatoes, to make the sauce, to make the meal that you enjoy at Restaurant XYZ, it builds in "value", in "order", until you finally destroy it all for a fee.

But that still means that wealth is a zero sum game, we just hope the wealth created is in Man's hands and the wealth destroyed is shouldered by infinite reservoirs.

This sounds very buddhist, they always talk about how the duality of nature.

I understand your point but wealth still cannot possibly be a zero sum game. We are all much wealthier because of free trade than we would be if we were fending for ourselves, this is very clear right? In a non zero sum game I imagine things can still be destroyed. Also, if a tomato is more valued than squash than you create more wealth by growing a tomato, more than the wealth lost by growing a squash.

Also, I think if you think of something besides food it makes more sense. For example, if I decide to spend that day as someones personal assistant I have created wealth. Would you consider sitting on my ass and doing nothing instead destroying it?

[a500lbgorilla]

This sounds very buddhist, they always talk about how the duality of nature.

I understand your point but wealth still cannot possibly be a zero sum game. We are all much wealthier because of free trade than we would be if we were fending for ourselves, this is very clear right?

Super clear, but that doesn't mean my view is wrong. If we enjoy all the value while the negative value is shouldered by the sun, soil and some sweat, it can still be a zero sum game.

Also, I think if you think of something besides food it makes more sense. For example, if I decide to spend that day as someones personal assistant I have created wealth. Would you consider sitting on my ass and doing nothing instead destroying it?

I see how being a personal assistant for a day is creating wealth because you're creating some sense of "order" but you're also destroying certain wealthy things, not that you could have been curing cancer in the same time, but that you're consuming water, salts, minerals, fats, proteins, all things taken to fuel your "order" creation, all drain on the possible total wealth of the world.

Does that make sense? I guess a logical question I'd like to ask is: Is there a maximum amount of value that we could possibly create on Earth?

[IowaSkinsFan]

I guess a logical question I'd like to ask is: Is there a maximum amount of value that we could possibly create on Earth?

I'm pretty sure the amount of value "created" every year is exponentially increasing, because the certain things create a better opportunity to create value. It seems to me that the logical answer is close to infinity.

[a500lbgorilla]

I'm pretty sure the amount of value "created" every year is exponentially increasing, because the certain things create a better opportunity to create value. It seems to me that the logical answer is close to infinity.

So you think that an infinite amount of wealth exists? That does not make any sense to me, as something must go into creating that infinite wealth, that infinite "order", and even the most infinite of reservoirs aren't truly infinite.

I can't explain it thoroughly but I am saying No to the idea of the possibility of infinite wealth.

[Lyric]

So you think that an infinite amount of wealth exists? That does not make any sense to me, as something must go into creating that infinite wealth, that infinite "order", and even the most infinite of reservoirs aren't truly infinite.

I can't explain it thoroughly but I am saying No to the idea of the possibility of infinite wealth.

Our wealth is only limited by our ability to create usable energy. The sun will grow to absorb the earth in 5 billion years. Until then the sun is giving us energy, the center of the earth is giving us usable energy, and we have the technology to create miniature "suns" on earth (nuclear power). There is enough uranium in the outer crust of the earth to support industrialized life for much longer than 5 billion years, so our wealth is effectively only theoretically limited by time, unless we can leave the planet and live further from the sun.

[a500lbgorilla]

Our wealth is only limited by our ability to create usable energy. The sun will grow to absorb the earth in 5 billion years. Until then the sun is giving us energy, the center of the earth is giving us usable energy, and we have the technology to create miniature "suns" on earth (nuclear power). There is enough uranium in the outer crust of the earth to support industrialized life for much longer than 5 billion years, so our wealth is effectively only theoretically limited by time, unless we can leave the planet and live further from the sun.

Still says there is a maximum wealth that isn't infinite, and that that maximum is coupled with the spent energy used for the creation of said wealth.

edit huge aside: have you heard of thorium reactors? YouTube - Thorium Remix 2009 - LFTR in 25 Minutes

[IowaSkinsFan]

So you think that an infinite amount of wealth exists? That does not make any sense to me, as something must go into creating that infinite wealth, that infinite "order", and even the most infinite of reservoirs aren't truly infinite.

I can't explain it thoroughly but I am saying No to the idea of the possibility of infinite wealth.

Well, you are right it is finite. All I was saying is there is a shitload of it.

[a500lbgorilla]

Well, you are right it is finite. All I was saying is there is a shitload of it.

This answer I like. Still means a zero sum game to me, just that we can finagle the negative away from human interests.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Does that make sense? I guess a logical question I'd like to ask is: Is there a maximum amount of value that we could possibly create on Earth?

I get your point now. The problem is past the things that help us survive and stay alive, value is relative. Everyone in the world thinks bread is valuable but what about a computer? I may find a computer ridiculously valuable but someone else may find it worthless. Its my understanding that a free market provides the most relative wealth for the most people.

[a500lbgorilla]

I get your point now. The problem is past the things that help us survive and stay alive, value is relative. Everyone in the world thinks bread is valuable but what about a computer? I may find a computer ridiculously valuable but someone else may find it worthless. Its my understanding that a free market provides the most relative wealth for the most people. My understanding is trying to regulate the free market is like making people buy a bunch of computers even when they don't want them.

Hmmm, I like this. I can't say anything right now but it's a good direction to head. Now I need to learn more about precisely what a free market is.

[Lyric]

Hmmm, I like this. I can't say anything right now but it's a good direction to head. Now I need to learn more about precisely what a free market is.

A free market is a default market. Is is people exchanging wealth with each other. A man who makes cheese exchanges one wheel for a bottle of wine made by another man. Both men enjoy a higher quality of life because of the exchange.

Before the exchange one man only had cheese and the other only had wine. After the exchange they both have cheese and wine and have done no additional work. In this way a free market improves life on earth.

A regulated market is any type of barrier to trade between the man with cheese and the man with wine.

[a500lbgorilla]

A free market is a default market. Is is people exchanging wealth with each other. A man who makes cheese exchanges one wheel for a bottle of wine made by another man. Both men enjoy a higher quality of life because of the exchange.

Before the exchange one man only had cheese and the other only had wine. After the exchange they both have cheese and wine and have done no additional work. In this way a free market improves life on earth.

A regulated market is any type of barrier to trade between the man with cheese and the man with wine.

I want to ask: pretend there exists in this world a small country with no natural wealth but a completely free market, how would the world react?

But I'm not sure I even understand all the variables I'm supposed to hold constant or where possible answers could lead.

So instead, do you feel like a free market is a realizable construct in this world?