shoving with 10 6 on the bubble chip leader

[ed cooper]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 6.5 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds 25 Ante (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t1290)
SB (t3380)
Hero (BB) (t7495)
UTG (t1335)

Hero's M: 18.74

Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
2 folds, SB bets t400, Hero raises to t6200,

so i think ive been back involved in poker about 18mths now, maybe here for 1 year. i enjoy studying the game, and during my studies, relearnt about blind protection. however, since learning more about icm, this kind of move seems to have disappeared from my game.

in this instance, the sb had pinched me blind about 4 times from 6, min raising each time.
i wanted to reshove when the right time presented itself. with the 2 short stacks here, i thought it was a good a time as any.
this couldve been my ego taking over, but i wanted to get some input anyhow.
would you still wait for a better hand or have the dynamics changed considering the other 2 stacks?
objectively, is there any difference between a shove and standard 3 bet?

my image: was running very well in this game, every time i showed my cards i think i had a pp. had been shoving quite a bit on the smaller stacks too.

thanks

[fulksy]

if he's a decent player, then you can shove pretty wide here.

[ManicLombax]

Right, middle stack definitely doesn't want to go broke on the bubble with the two short stacks ready to bust out. What do you all think about putting in say 1200 instead of shoving over, just in case he has a hand he actually wants to get it in with? I suppose 3 betting then laying down if he 4 bets is pretty weak, but I might do it.

[taipan168]

I think a shove over is a good move here particularly given the reads you describe. You should have lots of fold equity because of the two short stacks and I'd expect opp to fold lots of hands that you beat.

I wouldn't 3-bet less than AI here as if you get shoved over you have to fold.

[ManicLombax]

I wouldn't 3-bet less than AI here as if you get shoved over you have to fold.

You think he'd read the 3-bet less than AI as a sign of weakness and shove wider? Otherwise I'd think 3-betting then folding to his shove would save you 2000 chips if he's got AA/KK and actually wants to get it all in with the second stack on the bubble. If I were the second stack I'd fold just about everything to a 3-bet here, but maybe others are craftier than I am.

[taipan168]

You think he'd read the 3-bet less than AI as a sign of weakness and shove wider? Otherwise I'd think 3-betting then folding to his shove would save you 2000 chips if he's got AA/KK and actually wants to get it all in with the second stack on the bubble. If I were the second stack I'd fold just about everything to a 3-bet here, but maybe others are craftier than I am.

If you shove over he has to make a decision for his tourney life with two short stacks around. If you 3-bet less than AI, he may think that he has some fold equity by shoving over.

Plus there's always the chance that he flat calls in which case if we connect with any part of the flop and he bets we have a tough decision to make.

[ed cooper]

incidentally, villain called and had aq off.

is this a snap fold, disgruntled fold, or should he just have open shoved in the first place?

[baudib]

it's a pretty horrendous call on his part, which is the danger of doing this in low BI games.

[givememyleg]

nh

[Nakamura]

I think this is quite an interesting hand.

For one 3-betting looks way more spooky than shoving. Two, it saves you money when you he 4-bets his good hands and you fold. The real question is how different is his 4-betting range compared to his AI calling range.

My personal opinion is that when you 3-bet < AI, most villains will figure they have little FE and so these two ranges will be pretty similar. I'll try run some maths tomorrow to figure out how different these ranges have to be to make shoving more +EV.

The other option which hasn't been discussed is calling and raising most flops. Since the flop misses him most times, he will more than likely fold to any significant action. You have a massive amount of FE if he tries to stab at the pot and you put him AI, plus you win a much larger pot than if you just shove PF. I never take this route, but it's fun to think about.

[jsampson]

With this guy stealing blinds I think coming over the top is just fine but why risk your whole stack when a simple pot bet will give you all the info you need. if he calls or reraises he probably has your hand beat.

[dneureiter]

I think this is quite an interesting hand.

For one 3-betting looks way more spooky than shoving. Two, it saves you money when you he 4-bets his good hands and you fold. The real question is how different is his 4-betting range compared to his AI calling range.

My personal opinion is that when you 3-bet < AI, most villains will figure they have little FE and so these two ranges will be pretty similar. I'll try run some maths tomorrow to figure out how different these ranges have to be to make shoving more +EV.

The other option which hasn't been discussed is calling and raising most flops. Since the flop misses him most times, he will more than likely fold to any significant action. You have a massive amount of FE if he tries to stab at the pot and you put him AI, plus you win a much larger pot than if you just shove PF. I never take this route, but it's fun to think about.

nh,

I agree that unless you've really been getting fancy with villain it's clear he has no fold equity when you 3bet because you have plenty of chips behind even if u do lose. Obviously never calling here without KK+ but in another situation I could call a shove with like 9s or 10s and fold to a "spooky 3bet" just cuz 22-99 is always shoving here not 3betting.

The main difference between 3betting and shoving allin pre is the he has the option to flat which I think he does fairly often. this kind of combines with the last point you make. Villain cannot really stack off on many flops. A good villain will fold pretty much all single pair hands.

So I guess assuming he has a fold button we can make it 1000-1400 and shove any flops? ah, gross we'll be second to act I guess a good villain will still be fairly cautious postflop and we can shove if he checks or gaybets at us.

as far as his line I don't hate raising. Generally I don't give villains the credit that they will shove over me a ton here @ 5s and 10s. Even semidecent regs often won't. happens every time at 20s so I guess open shove if it's +ev or muck. He can't profitably call if you tell him you are shoving any two here though. it's defineately "oh this guy is a good player (or he picked up a strong hand which is rare), make note, mebbe tank for fun, then snapfold."

also regarding min-opens from sb this frequently you can flat some, you are getting 3-1 and have position.

[givememyleg]

you can also say "you don't want to bust before x" before you shove, in case he doesn't notice.