$3r Getting donked on dry boards

[AFchung]

These bets tilt me so much. I'm not a tournament player by any means, I just dabble around in them when I'm bored. In cash games I can just raise flop and barrel a lot of turns because I have the ammo to do so, but tournies just confuse the hell out of me since each street of betting or calling costs so much of your stack

What's the best line to take here? When I play straight forward and fold I seem to bleed a ton of chips into spots like these

Villain is 46/13. Only note is that he can iso limpers with A9o

edit: oops wrong forum

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.3 Tournament, 125/250 Blinds 40 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP1 (t20165)
MP2 (t5052)
MP3 (t4916)
CO (t13072)
Button (t36960)
SB (t15490)
BB (t14663)
UTG (t5450)
Hero (UTG+1) (t10258)

Hero's M: 13.96

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A, J
1 fold, Hero bets t500, 5 folds, SB calls t375, 1 fold

Flop: (t1610) 2, 4, 10 (2 players)
SB bets t750, Hero calls t750

Turn: (t3110) 4 (2 players)
SB bets t750, Wtf man

[Deanglow]

{Moved from FR}

[drmcboy]

I would often fold pre but it's ok

As played I would call flop and now call turn, often this will be the draw or a weak hand like 66 and he'll let you show down for 750 more or something dumb. But if you hit river and he suddenly wakes up I would fold. If he checks A/J river value bet. If he checks something else give up.

[stardustakos]

I would often fold pre but it's ok.

why would you fold AJ UTG+1 at this level blinds at a rebuy tournament?

[drmcboy]

this is post rebuy in either of the standard 3rb tourneys, if we're still in the rb period I assume OP would say so.

This is the only off suit 2 gap I would play from EP. I would raise more often if I had been playing tight or I expected to end up just playing against the blinds, but I don't think either of those are true much in a 3rb. If you're going to end up OOP, often in the middle, in a 3+ way pot AJo is not the hand I want to be looking at.

[stardustakos]

Agreed. Also, very often at these stakes, you get calls from loose players with way worse hands who are not positionaly aware, or not paying attention for that matter, to respect an EP open from a tight player. so that is why I gladly play this hand. Am I wrong?

[drmcboy]

If you're saying generally when you flop a pair 3 way with AJ oop with ~40 BBs you feel like you play it perfectly then you're better than me.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. If you're comfortable playing in this spot then how could you be wrong? I'm not sure what kind of reply you want. If it's math you have 33% vs top 15% and top 30%. That isn't a fist pump so the other factors should be favorable. I'll take a hand with more playability.

You also said in your reply "a tight player", as i said if I have been running tight I'd raise too, tight is not my standard style.

[chardrian]

the minraise has taken mtts by storm as the standard open now, but many (most) players have no idea why - they just jump on whatever the new wave is.

If I play this hand at all (I agree w/drmcboy that folding pre is fine/good), I think I would raise closer to 3x here pre in a 3r because ur minraise is just encouraging passive low stakes players to call behind, and that is what this tourney is filled with. And AJo is not a hand that we really want to play from EP in a multiway pot.

As played, raise flop, fold flop, or fold turn. Calling flop is ok against a guy who will donkbet one street, but most donkbettors are no longer just giving up when they are called.

[stardustakos]

I am never comfortable in the situation you described DrmcBoy.... and god forbit I have lost alot of chips from better and worst hands. I am asking, however, what is our open range here then?Isn't being too tight wrong at this stage of the tournament?

Chardrian I don't like the minraise (only on conditions)

[AFchung]

this was after the rebuy period. also i wasn't aware AJo was too loose. should our range be 77+ AQ?

chardrian which of those lines do you think is best? it doesn't feel like he can fold a better hand if we raise flop. and there was so much in the middle with his gayish turn bet that folding turn felt bleh

[drmcboy]

in ep assuming > 30 BBs for most of the table I open:

pairs 88+, add 22-77*

AQ+, add AT+*

scs 78s+, add in down to 34s *

all suited BWs, add KJo+, QTo+, JTo*

suited AT+, and A5s, will add all suited Axs*.

edit - also will add suited 1 gaps and 2 gaps somethings, mostly just J9, T8

* depending on my image/table


I think people way underestimate the value of the 10% or so you flop a FD plus the chance that you flop a combo draw or turn a FD. AJo is not good at any of these things. Scs and (semi) connected suited BWs and suited Ax all are. The more hands you can flop that you won't have to fold to a raise, the better.

Pairs are don't flop draws much either but you can almost always call one bet with a pair if you don't want to c bet and sets add a ton of value.

This gives me more opens than a standard range like 77+, AJ+, KQs that can also hit every flop.

I highly recommend getting the FT tourney book. It sounds cheesy but there is a really cool chapter by Andy Block that gives a really math oriented view of pre - basically what you should open assuming opps will call/raise with half the hands you raise with. You don't need to agree with that, but I was surprised to see the wide range of hands - like A8s - that mr math block was suggesting to raise UTG. He said in the text if you don't like raising hand XX, add in something else that you want to play. So I did.

There is some garbage in the book and ~1/2 of it is not about NLHE but you probably have some FT points you aren't using anyway.

[stardustakos]

I see your point and I couldn't agree with you more. I also underestimate suited cards and I shouldn't cause when I lose mid game, I loose from rivered flushes 80% of the time! (I have the best hand on flop) Anyway, bad players dont underestimate suited cards. They play J4s as gladly as AKs.