AK, action behind me

[ed cooper]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 6.5 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t1305)
SB (t1680)
BB (t1345)
UTG (t1350)
UTG+1 (t1395)
MP1 (t1880)
Hero (MP2) (t1340)
MP3 (t1065)
CO (t2140)

Hero's M: 8.93

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with ,
3 folds, Hero bets t250, MP3 raises to t1065 (All-In), CO raises to t2140 (All-In), i fold.

i started hand with 1340. should i have just open shoved? hadnt seen what mp3 was opening with but one hand he put a large % of stack in a pot, only to fold sth like a 150 bet into a 750 pot on river. the co i was more concerned with; was playing solidly, not in many pots.

[dneureiter]

I think standard raising (with the intention of calling shoves) is better than shoving because you can get people to put in stacks with AJ or AQ. As played I think I am calling but not happy about it. You are getting a great price since you have so few chips behind.

1065+1340+250+150=2805

1090 : 2805 is almost 2.6:1 on a call. And you still win a 600 chip sidepot should you beat CO but not mp3.


Hand 0: 27.659% { AKo }
Hand 1: 32.025% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 40.316% { 99+, AQs+, AKo }

Meh, after pokerstoving maybe we can fold but it feels dirty . . CO range could be tighter than that too.

[DetroitHusling101]

With over 13bb i like just opening since like the poster above said it gives them a chance to re shove worses Ax hands that would likely just fold to an open shove.

After this action i am still calling off.

[taipan168]

Hey Detroit! Long time no hear, how are things?

[DetroitHusling101]

Doing good , just grinding away , how about yourself?

Yeah been a long time since I've stopped in here , gonna try and show my face/avatar if you will a little more often.

[nice_aiau]

I prefer to open shove as I don't like missing this flop with these stack sizes, your right in that it might be less EV than open raising as it folds out hands that may 3bet us. But by shoving it avoids alot of tricky post flop situations.
Depending on who calls theres going to be at least 550 in the pot, with just over 1000 behind.
We're only hitting the flop 1/3rd of the time.
Continuation betting pretty much commits us to the hand, and check folding is highly exploitable.

We gain ev when people shove with a worst range then ours but i dont know if this outweighs the postflop awkwardness.
This been said I'd prefer to open raise as opposed to shoving if we were cutoff/button as we're going to have position postflop and also it looks more like a steal allowing the possiblity of a even wider range of a-x hands to 3b us.

[Nakamura]

Intuitively, this feels like a fold to me. I usually mix up shoving and open-raising in this spots depends on my position and how likely my opponents are to flat call me. I'll have a tough time playing the hand post-flop if I get flatted, especially if I'm OOP. I'm much more likely to std-raise in a later position against TAGGs, since I know they'll look to exploit weakness and my hand looks a lot like a steal attempt.

I think dneureiter's hand range is fine but probably weighed more towards AK, TT+. Some tight players will even muck TT in these spots. This makes it a close fold for me, but shoving probably isn't a huge mistake and gives us a huge stack to mess around the table.

[nice_aiau]

Intuitively, this feels like a fold to me. I usually mix up shoving and open-raising in this spots depends on my position and how likely my opponents are to flat call me. I'll have a tough time playing the hand post-flop if I get flatted, especially if I'm OOP. I'm much more likely to std-raise in a later position against TAGGs, since I know they'll look to exploit weakness and my hand looks a lot like a steal attempt.

I think dneureiter's hand range is fine but probably weighed more towards AK, TT+. Some tight players will even muck TT in these spots. This makes it a close fold for me, but shoving probably isn't a huge mistake and gives us a huge stack to mess around the table.

So in essence the difference between shoving and openraising is pretty marginal? My default is just to open shove here, as its easier. I also open shove my raising pairs apart from KK and AA.

I've watched a few of your grinderschool videos, NH sir

[Nakamura]

I've watched a few of your grinderschool videos, NH sir

Thanks

So in essence the difference between shoving and openraising is pretty marginal? My default is just to open shove here, as its easier. I also open shove my raising pairs apart from KK and AA.

In a way it's relatively trivial. I do both to make my play less predictable, although you probably don't need to do this at lower levels. By standard raising you allow hands like AQ or AJ to shove over. However you also allow hands like 66 or 77, which may fold to a shove, to shove against you. Obviously we'd rather have those fold than race.

Generally the more passive my opponent are behind me, the more likely I am to shove to avoid being flatted. Being flatted is the worst thing because you just don't know where you stand and you will often have to fold the best hand.

[fulksy]

would it be terrible to raise like 400, (with the intention to call a shove obv.) then have a PSB to shove any flop. thinking this might still get those AJ/AQ to shove over, most PP that fold to a shove fold to this bet, (if there half decent they know they have no FE) if they are terrible and shove over there's a good chance they were calling your shove, or if they flat you'll be getting extra value from your hand when they fold to your PSB of flop. or is this type of play better from in the blinds to limpers when your guaranteed to be oop on the flop? i guess this way gives small PP in the blind a chance to pull a stop and go on you first

[dneureiter]

would it be terrible to raise like 400, (with the intention to call a shove obv.) then have a PSB to shove any flop. thinking this might still get those AJ/AQ to shove over, most PP that fold to a shove fold to this bet, (if there half decent they know they have no FE) if they are terrible and shove over there's a good chance they were calling your shove, or if they flat you'll be getting extra value from your hand when they fold to your PSB of flop. or is this type of player better from in the blinds to limpers when your guaranteed to be oop on the flop? i guess this way gives small PP in the blind a chance to pull a stop and go on you first

I think the difference in the way opponents will play their range to a 4x open for almost 1/3 of your stack and an outright shove is pretty trivial.

@ nakamura, yea those are really optimistic ranges and it was intended that way. I think it's a correct fold, but I probably call in game

regarding shoving vs opening it depends on who is left to act. If you are shoving most of your value hands it leaves you no stealing range (at least not one that isn't face-up as a steal) with 14 bbs. Which is fine from middle position but definitely just raise from CO ->.

[Nakamura]

Noob question, at what point is raise-folding bad? MTT guys say that you should almost never raise and fold with < 20BB. I seldom raise and fold off < 15BB stack myself, but I will do off a 15-20BB stack.

I consistently see some regs raising their button with 12-13BB and folding to a shove. I know this depends on how aggressive the blinds are, but it looks pretty exploitable to me.

[fulksy]

Yea ive heard that lots too. Well I know I Generally still raise fold 15-20 bb in both Mtts and sngs, but lately in sngs My 10bb rule has turned more into like a 15 bb rule unless I have a monster which might be pretty bad, but I don't really love raise folding or Raise calling with like AJ on the button with say 14 bb. Good question though.

[nice_aiau]

Noob question, at what point is raise-folding bad? MTT guys say that you should almost never raise and fold with < 20BB. I seldom raise and fold off < 15BB stack myself, but I will do off a 15-20BB stack.

I consistently see some regs raising their button with 12-13BB and folding to a shove. I know this depends on how aggressive the blinds are, but it looks pretty exploitable to me.

I was going to say that its pretty terrible to raise-fold at that blind level.
Maybe the extra blinds stolen at low risk outweighs the times they get 3b exploited. It'd be pretty close either way. Are they winning regs?

[Nakamura]

I was going to say that its pretty terrible to raise-fold at that blind level.
Maybe the extra blinds stolen at low risk outweighs the times they get 3b exploited. It'd be pretty close either way. Are they winning regs?

Yes, at least one is in the top 5 in Sharkscope leader board. I personally don't think he is very good though and doesn't seem to think on a high level at all. Personal opinion though. I also notice he never table selects which is very annoying at the $16s as many regulars will avoid table with 2 or more regs. As a friend pointed out to me, you learn to take small edges in ICM, strategies etc. and then throw away your edge by playing in game with 5 or 6 regs.....

[drmcboy]

PearlJammer directly says in one of the books (I may have the exact language wrong) "Good MTT pros don't raise fold 20BB stacks". He makes no qualifications to the statement. In general I don't agree, esp > 15, there are lots of spots where I think you can raise ATC and fold. You shouldn't do it with something like AJ.

I also think this general thought is what started the movement to 2.5x raise and now often min raise because people decided 3x/fold with 20BBs was bad, but min raising seemed better.