TPTK getting raised on the turn?

[Tom42]

Hi, i'm new here. I actually posted some hands way back, and then stopped playing for a couple of years. I started again a month and a half ago, but i'm rusty and i need to get some feedback if i want to improve.


This is probably a standard situation, but it's important to get standard right so here goes...


It's 6max 100NL, 6 payers. I'm UTG 200BB deep, villain 1 is on the Button, and villain 2 in the BB. Both villains cover me.

I get dealt AQo and raise 4x. Both villains call.

Flop is Qx 6h 4h. BB checks, i bet 10$ into a 12$ pot, villain 1 calls, villain 2 folds.

Turn is 2x. I bet 20$ (pot 32), and he raises to 62$... ?



Villain is one of the better regs i've played against since i'm back, and he's something like 23/17. Pocket pairs and suited connector are the bulk of his range here, i think.

My UTG range is tight, and i'm betting into 2 players on the flop, so i'm pretty sure villain thinks my range is KQ+ here for the most part. He is obviously only repping 66 and 44. The thing is my line is very transparent, and he probably knows i'm not going to stack off 200BB deep with TP or overs. Does he do this enough with draws, or maybe some planned float with air, to continue?

What is your line here?

[meeloche]

I would fold without more info.

[Carroters]

Very rare bluff line in these games from regs and fish alike. Folding is likely best without info he can play a fd or float this way.

[griffey24]

Meh, sucks but fold. This deep can def have 35 here.

[shakesss]

The factors that we take into consideration before deciding to to b/f, c/c or b/c are more important than what might be technically correct in this specific spot. The deuce will probably give his small fd's on the flop some added equity and this is a spot where it just looks like ur b/f'ing a ton and even if u dont fold there its an easy river ship IP for him esp since he can be quite balanced. To top it off his flatting range there is so wide and ur barreling range is quite narrow and polarized. If you think he is a good player then he would be more likely to exploit it. Knowing what level ur opponent is on and estimating what he might think u will do in this spot will generally put you in good situations that arent too exploitable.

Whenever im playing deep on a table where there are a couple of decent players with similar stack sizes I try my best to see how they play against each other in HU spots and it gives me a good sense of how they might play against me if they perceive me to be a decent player as well.

Against this specific guy I wouldnt mind c/c'ing or b/c'ing turn and c/re-eval river. Given the disparity between his vpip and pfr i would assume he is flatting a fair bit in position and since ur deep he is more likely to flat and float wider. If the sample size of hands is big enough his turn raise percentage IP and river AF as well as his WTSD, WWSF and W$SD would give us a pretty good idea of how he carries on with the hand if he gets called. Our hand is super face up by the river so we would have to soul read our way out of it. I would fold on almost all rivers that are good for his percieved semi bluffing range on the river if he were to bet them obv. I might be calling off most of the other cards that dont fall into the previous category.

Dont know whether this is very spewey or not vs this specific player 200bb deep OOP. Its not something i would do everytime ofcourse but depending on certain aggro dynamics i would take a more showdown bound line whether it be c/c'ing or b/c'ing on wettish boards against thinking players.

[Tom42]

Thanks shakess, and others. I also think it's a clear fold now, without reads that is. And making good reads are a part of my game that def needs to improve...

At the time of the hand i felt as if he was trying to put a move on me, mainly because my image was probably that of a pretty straightforward player. And because he instacalled on the flop. I would expect someone to raise the flop with a set, or at least think about it for a second. There is a flush draw on the board and stacks are deep, so he would want to put money in. But i guess 53s is also a possibility.


Anyway I called his raise, and the river was a third .

I checked, he shoved for a little less than pot, and I folded.


Here's similar hand where i took another line. It's another villain, but with very similar stats, 23/18, with about 10% 3bet. No real other relevant reads on his postflop game.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

villain (Button) ($145.71)
Hero (MP) ($274.04)
BB ($94.12)
SB ($107.56)
UTG ($101.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A
1 fold, Hero bets $3, villain calls $3, 2 folds

Flop: ($7.50) 4, 7, K (2 players)
Hero bets $6, villain calls $6

Turn: ($19.50) 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, villain bets $13.89, Hero calls $13.89

River: ($47.28) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, villain bets $65, Hero???

[Tom42]

And shakess, i think it may be spewey. I'm learning the hard way that turnraise-ranges on these stakes are allmost allways weighted more towards the nearnuts than semi-bluffs. They allways seem to have it.

I think it takes specific reads to call turnraises, and even more specific to call the rivershoves, even if the river blanks. The river shove actually also gives you extra info. Not many villains on these stakes are going to bluff off their stack in these spots, especially because we are on an obvious bluff-catching line (B/C, C/C).

[Tom42]

What if we take a Check-raise line instead this deep? B/C or C/C both seem very transparant i think, and B/F maybe is to weak.

That way we put him to a decision for his stack, and if we get 3bet we at least have an obvious fold.

[meeloche]

Here's similar hand where i took another line. It's another villain, but with very similar stats, 23/18, with about 10% 3bet. No real other relevant reads on his postflop game.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

villain (Button) ($145.71)
Hero (MP) ($274.04)
BB ($94.12)
SB ($107.56)
UTG ($101.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A
1 fold, Hero bets $3, villain calls $3, 2 folds

Flop: ($7.50) 4, 7, K (2 players)
Hero bets $6, villain calls $6

Turn: ($19.50) 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, villain bets $13.89, Hero calls $13.89

River: ($47.28) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, villain bets $65, Hero???

I'd usually just bet all 3 myself. As played I'd call.

[shakesss]

And shakess, i think it may be spewey. I'm learning the hard way that turnraise-ranges on these stakes are allmost allways weighted more towards the nearnuts than semi-bluffs. They allways seem to have it.

I think it takes specific reads to call turnraises, and even more specific to call the rivershoves, even if the river blanks. The river shove actually also gives you extra info. Not many villains on these stakes are going to bluff off their stack in these spots, especially because we are on an obvious bluff-catching line (B/C, C/C).

I completely agree that most of the time against a standard opponent at 100nl with 100bb or 200bb stacks it would be a pretty standard b/f spot. Against what you described as a god reg playing deep and running 23/17 vs ur perceived taggish image I would put more semi bluffing hands into his turn raising range and would have to adjust by not b/fing everytime.