Comments on SNG Experiment 2 - 10 April 2011

[baudib]

I think I played well this time.

[DoubleJ]

I think I played well this time.

+1

I believe it was sheer misfortune that you didn't cash. shame.



BTW - do we qualify for this now?:

Play Team PokerStars Pro for Free - UK Home Games With Poker Pros

wouldn't mind a pop at a grand

[baudib]

if you guys weren't such nits i could have made the bubble at least.

[baudib]

Is it standard for you guys to fold AQ to a single raise? I feel like a supertard reading these hhs.

Also folding TT UTG in a shorthanded game with a squeaky clean image seems uber nitty.

The AQ-AK hand won by Rage was played well by both.

[fulksy]

wow Double J called ridiculously tight , i was in a terrible position with fiel being super aggro from the btn and baub sitting out. i think i played pretty bad looking at these HH, when i had a hand no action and when i was stealing boom picked off, need to balance better.

[Rage2100]

Is it standard for you guys to fold AQ to a single raise? I feel like a supertard reading these hhs.

The AQ hand I folded (Hand 4) was mainly because it was very early in the SnG and it was taipan raising. I thought he would be playing very tight early on.

[Fielmann]

Is it standard for you guys to fold AQ to a single raise?

I think folding it in hand 18 is being too tight, folding it in hand 53 is okay, hand 4 is in between.

Open-folding TT is obviously way tight, I usually open it from UTG at a full table.

Other than that there's not much to comment on, everybody played fine. Hand 97 looks like a call to me.

[Rage2100]

Hand 97 looks like a call to me.

I think you're right, I should have called this. I figured I would most likely be in a flip against two overcards, and that I could pick up chips by shoving on DoubleJ and andyjok instead. As fulksy had also shoved the previous hand, I thought he may have a stronger hand this time.

[DoubleJ]

Double J called ridiculously tight

Ridicule I can handle. I mean, have you seen my hair?



Thanks for the feedback, y'all - Some further [non-facetious] thoughts to come later - I have to pretend to be working for a while.

[DoubleJ]

...folding TT UTG in a shorthanded game with a squeaky clean image seems uber nitty...

Oui. C'est moi. The UberNitty UberNoob.

Dunno if you got the context on me, but i'm pretty much a beginner; this was my 28th SnG, with all the others being $0.25 45ers on P.Stars against the polar-opposite field-type.

But hey, no excuses.

I brought my B-Game (as i don't have an A-Game yet) and this is based almost entirely on Sit 'N Go Strategy by Collin Moshman and Harrington on Hold 'Em I and II.

This means playing tight (koff koff) and not getting involved with big pots early on with marginal hands, then ramping up the aggro as the blinds increase/M decreases and hopefully using my UberNitty image to buy some respect for steals and raises.

I think I did OK, but would really appreciate any critiques and/or advice on what to focus on next in order to progress my game from ABC poker. Don't pull any punches; I can take it.....

Oh, and baudib? At least I showed up, eh?

[DoubleJ]

A quick question to taipan168 re hands 115 and 124

In both hands, I make a standard 3x BB raise with a 10x + BB stack, but you're seeing something different, and I don't think I follow your maths.

Am I missing something?

But of course...you're soooo right about me not having any kind of plan wrt getting shoved over.

10 little words, worth every penny of the $5.50 buy-in. Gawd bless ya

[taipan168]

A quick question to taipan168 re hands 115 and 124

In both hands, I make a standard 3x BB raise with a 10x + BB stack, but you're seeing something different, and I don't think I follow your maths.

Am I missing something?

Basically, whenever a standard raise would commit you to the pot if you get shoved over preflop (ie. if raising then folding to a shove would be a mistake because of the pot odds) then you should just open shove yourself. Generally speaking this point is somewhere between 12-15x BB depending on table dynamics, antes, etc. That's why I was surprised when you raised 3x BB with less than 10x BB.

On Hand 115, you are calling a shove over 100% of the time with JJ so that's most probably fine and in this game you would almost always get shoved over rather than called. However, the reason I would shove this hand in a "normal" SNG is that "normal" SNGs are generally speaking full of calltards, and how would you feel about your JJ if you standard raised, got 2 callers and overcards came on the flop (remembering that they do so about 50% of the time when you have JJ).

Same logic applies to Hand 124 (TT).

Hand 117 (A5) was the one that surprised me the most and sort of illustrates my point - when andyjok shoved over, you are getting odds of 2.55 to 1 to call his shove (so you only need to be about 30% to win to make this a good call), so even if he showed you his AT face up you are pretty much getting the right price to call even though you know you're dominated. Throw in the possibility that andy is shoving over with hands that you beat (eg. Kx, Qx, Jx, A2-A4) and that's why you made a mistake by folding to the shove. Better to shove the first time around, if he has something that beats you then so be it.

[DoubleJ]

Gold Dust, mate. Absolute Gold Dust. I shall amend my "cookie-cutter" betting strategy immediately.

Thanks so much for taking the time to get back to me on this taipan168 - it's really appreciated.

Hand 117 - yeh, that was dopey of me. Looking back, I think the real error was failing to take into account andyjok's stack size, and raising instead of shoving.

Once he played back, I was left dithering around over whether to call or not. I saw that I had favourable odds, but assumed that andyjok knew that he's given me favourable odds, and therefore wanted me to call.

What tipped it in the end [and you'll hate this] was the value of staying in a "proper" game for as long as possible and just watching and learning. A bad poker playing decision, but ultimately - I think - a good poker learning decision.

...you are getting odds of 2.55 to 1 to call his shove (so you only need to be about 30% to win to make this a good call), so even if he showed you his AT face up you are pretty much getting the right price to call even though you know you're dominated...

So...can you point me at any threads here that expand on this point, please? I understand the pot odds calculation, but somehow the penny has yet to drop...

Again - many thanks!

O yeh - Hand 118 [folding AQo from BB] - just out of interest, how would you have played that?

[DoubleJ]

... how would you feel about your JJ if you standard raised, got 2 callers and overcards came on the flop (remembering that they do so about 50% of the time when you have JJ)...

Actually, I think the numbers are worse than that.

JJ will only be an overpair to the board 36.245% of the time

[Fielmann]

...you are getting odds of 2.55 to 1 to call his shove (so you only need to be about 30% to win to make this a good call), so even if he showed you his AT face up you are pretty much getting the right price to call even though you know you're dominated...

So...can you point me at any threads here that expand on this point, please?

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

[Fielmann]

Actually, I think the numbers are worse than that.

JJ will only be an overpair to the board 36.245% of the time

11.8% of flops give you a set instead of an overpair, so it's a total of ~48% of favourable flops.

[DoubleJ]

Thanks for the link, Fielmann. Will ingest ASAP.

11.8% of flops give you a set instead of an overpair, so it's a total of ~48% of favourable flops.

Please forgive any Noooobie impertinence, but I'm not sure I follow your logic there.

Comparing numbers for a second, all Pocket Pairs have a 12.000% chance of improving* on the flop.

44+ then have varying possibilities for OverPairing the board, but even when they do, does this necessarily mean that the flop is favourable? What about the risk of Straights or Flushes?

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your definition, and thanks again for your input. It's appreciated!

* Improving means making a Set, FullHouse or Quads. I never know how to treat 2Pair.

[taipan168]

What tipped it in the end [and you'll hate this] was the value of staying in a "proper" game for as long as possible and just watching and learning. A bad poker playing decision, but ultimately - I think - a good poker learning decision.

Fair enough, I understand!

O yeh - Hand 118 [folding AQo from BB] - just out of interest, how would you have played that?

Oh yeah, I did see that when I was scanning the hands, no way would I have folded AQo in that hand (actually Hand 116), snap call particularly since fulksy has been raising/shoving so much. AJ would have been right on the margin though.

[baudib]

Double J:
Your questions are sort of vague. Playing poker postflop goes beyond looking at the flop and saying, "ZOMG I haz overpair."

You need to analyze flop textures, assign players hand ranges and figure out how well those ranges hit the flop.

Generically, an overpair is usually a strong hand. But, it depends...

When a tight player raises UTG, gets called by 3 people, and you have 99 on a 743 board and preflop raiser bets and 2 other people call, your hand isn't worth much.

When you have 99 and raise preflop, get called by a loose player in the blinds and the flop is 842r, this is pretty favorable.

Two red Aces vs. a button caller and the BB on a board of Ts9c8s is not a great hand. JJ vs. a button caller on a board of 942r is pretty strong.

[andyjok]

Hand 13 nak commented on calling the shove here with aq as standard but considering this is still early in the tourney and the call was for about 2/3rds of stack would a fold not be a better option. Maybe i have found a leak in my own game as i would have folded in this spot.

[Fielmann]

44+ then have varying possibilities for OverPairing the board, but even when they do, does this necessarily mean that the flop is favourable? What about the risk of Straights or Flushes?

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your definition, and thanks again for your input. It's appreciated!

I wasn't trying to give a definition of a favourable flop, I was just explaining why taipan remembered that the chance of flopping overcards was ~50%. Fact is that 36% you'll have an overpair and 12% you'll have a set (in which case you don't really mind overcards). That leaves 52% for flops that have overcards which you don't like.

Having 44 for an overpair is obviously not the same as having JJ for an overpair, and board's drawyness does matter (see baudib's explanation above), but all this depends heavily on opponents' ranges and is another discussion altogether.

Now, you also asked about the hand 128:

interested to know Fielmann's thoughts on this one - A3o looks a bit puny for a call here, especially w/ no pressure to make a move...Big stack driving decision?

Yes it was more marginal than I thought, actually. If Q9o is the worst hand shove here, then calling with A3o is profitable by 0.19% of the prize pool. If you're shoving wider, then it becomes more profitable.

If my stack was 1500 instead of 5500, then the call would become marginally incorrect. So yes, the big stack did influence the decision in a sense, but it's via mathematics, not via emotions.

In order to do these analyses, you need to get a program to do it quickly for you, I suggest SnGWizard, but there are others. It will teach you the push/fold game of late stages and is an absolutely indespensable tool if you're at all serious about Sit and Go's.

[DoubleJ]

I wasn't trying to give a definition of a favourable flop...

DOH! [slaps head] - I see it now...sorry! I guess I just got bambooozled by the numbers

In order to do these analyses, you need to get a program to do it quickly for you, I suggest SnGWizard...

Yes, I've got SnGWiz on eval right now. It's an ugly bugger, but I can see the power.

There's some forum traffic [can't remember where] about not using SnGWiz's built-in hand ranges, coz they're "way off". What are your thoughts on that?

Again, thanks for all the help - you guys are great!!

[DoubleJ]

Double J: Your questions are sort of vague.

Yeh, sorry man...completely misunderstood Fielmann's post

Playing poker postflop goes beyond looking at the flop and saying, "ZOMG I haz overpair."

Please tell me that you know people who actually say that.

[taipan168]

Hand 13 nak commented on calling the shove here with aq as standard but considering this is still early in the tourney and the call was for about 2/3rds of stack would a fold not be a better option. Maybe i have found a leak in my own game as i would have folded in this spot.

In this game where players are super aggressive, I would expect Fielmann to shove over with a hand range that is pretty solidly beaten by AQ. Fielmann would be smelling a button steal here and I bet you he was not happy to run into a hand as strong as AQ.

[baudib]

Please tell me that you know people who actually say that.

actually that's about the extent of my postflop abilities...

[DoubleJ]

actually that's about the extent of my postflop abilities...

LOL!

[andyjok]

In this game where players are super aggressive, I would expect Fielmann to shove over with a hand range that is pretty solidly beaten by AQ. Fielmann would be smelling a button steal here and I bet you he was not happy to run into a hand as strong as AQ.

So the call here was based on the player read so in a normal sit n go early on with no reads would you lean towards folding

[taipan168]

So the call here was based on the player read so in a normal sit n go early on with no reads would you lean towards folding

Yes, in general - unless I had a specific read on the player such as they were aggressive or a solid multitabler, in which case I'd call. In any case in a normal SNG it is more likely that players would call rather than shove over so it's kind of a moot point.

[Nakamura]

So the call here was based on the player read so in a normal sit n go early on with no reads would you lean towards folding

I did remember Fielmann was the most aggressive player from the last game and guessed he was probably on a light 3-betting strategy. You pretty much need a read that the player is aggro before you snap call in these spots. That said I snap called because I had already made the decision to call before I raised, which is generally good practice.

Some points

- I have folded once already to one of his 3-bets, so he has FE.
- Our range looks weak and will contain many more hands we will fold than call with.
- He has just lost a big pot and may be pushing slightly wider.
- He will be shoving a lot of Ax hands that I dominate.