KK $12 turbo

[fulksy]

yay finally bought a HUD, villan was 38/13, but only 8 hands, pretty sure i missed value on turn. pretty sure if i check turn i need to call river, played this pretty bad IMO

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $40(BB) Replayer
Hero ($1,420)
BB ($1,490)
UTG ($1,660)
UTG+1 ($1,455)
CO ($1,565)
BTN ($1,410)

Dealt to Hero K K

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $120, Hero calls $100, BB calls $80

FLOP ($360) 5 Q 8

Hero bets $200, BB folds, BTN calls $200

TURN ($760) 5 Q 8 A

Hero checks, BTN checks

RIVER ($760) 5 Q 8 A 9

[color=red]Hero bets $420, BTN raises to $1,090 (AI), hero?

[baudib]

I'd 3-bet a pretty wide value range from the SB, shove turn, as played I think river's a fold actually.

[fulksy]

ya i knew i botched this hand pretty bad. i thought flat was fine pre but hindsight 3 bet might be better.

[taipan168]

I'd also 3-bet somewhat small (say 260 or so), then make a pot-committing bet on a non-A flop. As played, flop bet is fine and I like a c/c on the turn.

I'd also check the river (with the intention of calling a non-AI bet) rather than betting, as you played the river I'm not sure what to do, you're getting massive odds on the call but his line looks just so strong.

[Fielmann]

What's the buy-in?

Pre: I'd prefer a 3-bet, because the raise came from late position which means our 3-betting range will be wider. In other words - it can be taken for a re-steal.
I don't think flatting is horrible, though.

Flop: I think leading out and going for a check-raise are both fine.

Turn: I don't really see where the missed value is here. With an Ace showing and you betting on both flop and turn I'd have to think before calling with KQ, and I'd fold QJ, 99-JJ like always. Even if he does call with them, he probably has a set or two pair about as often. If we really-really want to get value, we're better off waiting until river, where we will have more information and our range will look weaker.

River: I wouldn't bet, because the board looks so scary that check-call probably extracts more money. As played I'd fold, but I think it's actually quite close.

[Nakamura]

I don't get why we would want to 3-bet in this spot. Villain has a wide range from the button and by 3-betting we let him off the hook with a whole bunch of his range that is going to spazz out when he hits TP. Obviously if he calls every 3-bet with complete impunity, then we should 3-bet, but I think the reality is that we will be causing a lot of hands he will go broke with on the flop to fold.

[taipan168]

I don't get why we would want to 3-bet in this spot. Villain has a wide range from the button and by 3-betting we let him off the hook with a whole bunch of his range that is going to spazz out when he hits TP. Obviously if he calls every 3-bet with complete impunity, then we should 3-bet, but I think the reality is that we will be causing a lot of hands he will go broke with on the flop to fold.

If you 3-bet small enough, many button raisers will find the pot odds to see the flop irresistable. Heck, maybe even min 3-bet if you like (but I don't like that since it gives opp correct odds to see the flop with Ax) but I want to build the pot with my monster hand.

To apply the reverse to your logic, some button raisers may even shove over if they think that you're trying to pick of their button steal cheaply.

[fulksy]

i really didn't think flatting pre was that bad here, i think 3 betting folds out so much, without reads I'm not gonna assume he's gonna spaz 4 bet garbage. but i thought i messed up post flop bad, river at the time i was thinking that after a float on the flop his range had a lot of Qx, maybe 8x hands that would call a bet on river(after i checked the turn) but would check back if i checked instead of turning a hand with showdown value into a bluff, if the flop had more draws i would of c/c. but looking back c/c proabably better either way