Rank your religiousness II

[OngBonga]

I can see absolutely no difference between spirituality and the belief in a god or gods. Both require the observer to suspend the rational process in favor of faith. Either that, or it requires the observer to commit to poor logic. Both require the presence of an immaterial entity or entities to exist, and the belief that these entities can interact with and influence our material world.

I disagree with these comments here. Let me just be clear, I'm agnostic, which is another way of saying I haven't got a fucking clue, nor am I going to pretend to. If everyone was honest with themselves, then this is how everyone should feel. But, people like to think they know, don't they? Very rarely will you hear a Christian say "I might be wrong". And it's the same with the "I know there's no God" people. That is a statement of faith, not fact.

God doesn't have to be an immaterial entity, that's just the words of someone who has already decided that God doesn't exist. To some people, the Sun is God. Well, the Sun exists, I can tell you. Without it, there is no life. The Sun isn't a conscious entity, but it's certainly the reason we're here.

I do not abandon logic or rational thought when it comes to trying to understand God. That is why I reject religion so strongly. Religion is to embrace one idea and to reject everything else, which is completely contradictory to my science-based thinking.

But, at the same time, science has not yet explained to me what makes me different from a rock. Why am I alive, aware? What makes me think? What makes me conscious? Where does life come from? Why is a rock not alive?

My very existence, and indeed awareness of it, proves to me that there is much more than we understand. I can't even begin to put into words what that means to me, because I don't know. All I know is there is more. I do not believe for a second that when I die, that is the end of it all as far as I'm concerned. By body might not be able to play host to my soul any longer, but my body is just carbon and stuff, my body is no more than a rock when I die. It is the life, the soul, that is the unexplainable bit, that is what I don't understand. All I know is it's there, it exists. Life exists, and for me, that is God.

[wufwugy]

I disagree with these comments here. Let me just be clear, I'm agnostic, which is another way of saying I haven't got a fucking clue, nor am I going to pretend to.

That's more atheism that you think. Modern agnosticism is more a cop-out than anything. Atheism is what agnosticism used to be which is basically "evidence is insufficient homey"

If everyone was honest with themselves, then this is how everyone should feel. But, people like to think they know, don't they? Very rarely will you hear a Christian say "I might be wrong". And it's the same with the "I know there's no God" people. That is a statement of faith, not fact.

We must be careful not to equivocate definitions. From the most fundamental perspective, everything is a product of faith. We can't actually prove anything, and everything is based upon fundamental assumption (like math isn't fake). However, in our practical world, there is no statement truer than "we know god doesn't exist". We have as much evidence for the falseness of any meaningful assertion of god as we do for literally anything. If we're wrong when we say god doesn't exist, we're also wrong when we say the world goes round.

But, at the same time, science has not yet explained to me what makes me different from a rock. Why am I alive, aware? What makes me think? What makes me conscious? Where does life come from? Why is a rock not alive?

Not sure where you're getting this. Science does so very well, but not absolutely, as nothing can be absolutely anyways

My very existence, and indeed awareness of it, proves to me that there is much more than we understand. I can't even begin to put into words what that means to me, because I don't know. All I know is there is more. I do not believe for a second that when I die, that is the end of it all as far as I'm concerned. By body might not be able to play host to my soul any longer, but my body is just carbon and stuff, my body is no more than a rock when I die. It is the life, the soul, that is the unexplainable bit, that is what I don't understand. All I know is it's there, it exists. Life exists, and for me, that is God.

Your "soul" is your body. Consciousness and feeling is biological

You're doing the ever so popular God of the Gaps fallacy i.e. whatever we haven't explained, that's god

[OngBonga]

Your "soul" is your body. Consciousness and feeling is biological

We're miles apart here, bro. I'm not saying you're wrong, far from it, I'm saying this is not something I agree with. The body is merely a collection of atoms and molecules, clumped together to form a host for the soul. If the molecules alone are the reason for consciousness, then why isn't a rock conscious? It too is molecules. The rock lacks something that I don't... life. Where does the biological activity come from?

And I was under the impression that atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist in any form... that's not me. I neither accept nor dismiss God.

[CoccoBill]

If the molecules alone are the reason for consciousness, then why isn't a rock conscious? It too is molecules. The rock lacks something that I don't... life. Where does the biological activity come from?

Because of the different functions and interactions of said molecules.

Organism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My favorite theory of consciousness is described in the book I linked to; that consciousness is an illusion created by complexity. Our brains have enough neurons, synapses, neural pathways, neurochemistry and electronic activity to create enough options for us to create the illusion of sentience.

[wufwugy]

We're miles apart here, bro. I'm not saying you're wrong, far from it, I'm saying this is not something I agree with. The body is merely a collection of atoms and molecules, clumped together to form a host for the soul. If the molecules alone are the reason for consciousness, then why isn't a rock conscious? It too is molecules. The rock lacks something that I don't... life. Where does the biological activity come from?

Everything in existence has the exact same fundamental building blocks. Every single thing that has ever been demonstrated to be different than anything else is due to arrangement and interactions of the building blocks. It starts with quarks, goes to particles, on to atoms, chemicals, and on. We have not mapped the brain in order to fully determine what consciousness is, but every shred of evidence we have shows that it's all just chemicals, nothing magical like a soul

And I was under the impression that atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist in any form... that's not me. I neither accept nor dismiss God.

Philosophically, atheism is not believing things without sufficient reason. Colloquially, it's not believing in an asserted god for this reason

[OngBonga]

Everything in existence has the exact same fundamental building blocks. Every single thing that has ever been demonstrated to be different than anything else is due to arrangement and interactions of the building blocks. It starts with quarks, goes to particles, on to atoms, chemicals, and on. We have not mapped the brain in order to fully determine what consciousness is, but every shred of evidence we have shows that it's all just chemicals, nothing magical like a soul

I hate to point this out, but this post just shows how little you (and of course the rest of us) understand. It starts with quarks? You know this, do you? Didn't they once say it started with atoms? You make a statement of faith, and present it like fact.

Rocks are made of atoms, quarks, whatever, just like I am. If it's down to the basic building blocks, then everything should have conciosuness, or nothing should. Clearly that's not the case. Well, I say clearly, I don't know the rock isn't concsious, I just assume not.

A soul isn't magical, that's atheism talk right there. It's no more magical than a bunch of quarks smoking weed and playing chess.

And besides, even if I agree with the notion that our awareness is merely chemical reactions, that's still something. Why should chemical reactions create awareness? That's coming from somewhere, no? Maybe I don't have an individual soul, I can get on with that, perhaps I am a collection of billions of little souls, all working together to create a viable life-form. In fact that sounds more plausible than a single soul.

[wufwugy]

I hate to point this out, but this post just shows how little you (and of course the rest of us) understand. It starts with quarks? You know this, do you? Didn't they once say it started with atoms? You make a statement of faith, and present it like fact.

I was referring to current understanding. Also, the claim that incomplete knowledge is evidence of complete wrongness is, well, wrong. I mention it because that logic is being used unwittingly. Scientific understanding doesn't really tip over, it develops.

Rocks are made of atoms, quarks, whatever, just like I am. If it's down to the basic building blocks, then everything should have conciosuness, or nothing should.

Nope. I know you can figure out why. Existence of building blocks =! a particular interaction of building blocks

A soul isn't magical, that's atheism talk right there. It's no more magical than a bunch of quarks smoking weed and playing chess.

It is magical i.e. make believe i.e. a belief without reason. There is no more evidence for the soul than there is for the Flying Spaghetti Monster (hail his noodley appendages)

And besides, even if I agree with the notion that our awareness is merely chemical reactions, that's still something. Why should chemical reactions create awareness? That's coming from somewhere, no?

Why is this even a relevant, answerable question? Do you see what I did there?

Unfortunately, I do not have the best response for this. Dawkins once laid out an excellent rebuttal to why "why" is irrelevant and unanswerable, but I don't remember it. But really, the answer to these fundamental "whys" is, it just is. The human mind (possibly more like the english linguistic mind) considers this a real question, but it's actually not. The fundamental "why" is meaningless and unanswerable

[OngBonga]

There is no more evidence for the soul than there is for the Flying Spaghetti Monster (hail his noodley appendages)

Incorrect. I have evidence to support my claim that I have a soul... my awareness of my existence. I realise that you have an argument for that, but I at least provide an argument for my position. I can provide absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support the notion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, therefore my conclusion is that the existence of a soul is much more likely than our Pasta God.

[boost]

I hate to point this out, but this post just shows how little you (and of course the rest of us) understand. It starts with quarks? You know this, do you? Didn't they once say it started with atoms? You make a statement of faith, and present it like fact.

Rocks are made of atoms, quarks, whatever, just like I am. If it's down to the basic building blocks, then everything should have conciosuness, or nothing should. Clearly that's not the case. Well, I say clearly, I don't know the rock isn't concsious, I just assume not.

This cup is yellow.
That is also a cup.
It is not yellow.
This cup must be full.
That cup must be empty.

A soul isn't magical, that's atheism talk right there. It's no more magical than a bunch of quarks smoking weed and playing chess.

Magic seems like a perfectly appropriate way to label that which defies the laws of physics and is unobservable.

And besides, even if I agree with the notion that our awareness is merely chemical reactions, that's still something. Why should chemical reactions create awareness? That's coming from somewhere, no? Maybe I don't have an individual soul, I can get on with that, perhaps I am a collection of billions of little souls, all working together to create a viable life-form. In fact that sounds more plausible than a single soul.

And see, now you are changing the definition of a soul to now make it represent the multitude of chemical reactions that create consciousness. God of the gaps. Chemicals react with each other and convert matter into energy. When chemicals are arranged and interact in very complex ways, what we call "consciousness" is present. Why do we need to invoke magic? Physics has already given us the thumbs up.