Streetbet I am calling you out!!!

[gotigers1234]

You said to start a new thread if I wanted to learn about bet sizing pre. Well here it is.... I want to know it all.

In the last few days I have seen others talking about raising pre based on position rather than hand strength in order to not give out too much info about your hand.

In a loose game FR what is your strategy? Are you raising bigger for value? ??

In a tight game are you trying to see cheap flops??

And how does position factor into your bet sizing and why??

Thank you sir for your time and willingness to help a poor bastard like me.

[caddie444]

lol streetbet. Will chime in once he does.

[d0zer]

oh snap, streetbet got called the F out

[daven]

i suggest asking one simple question at a time rather than asking someone to write a book...

[BorisTheSpider]

Someone commented on bet sizing in one of my threads yesterday. If you want a simple rule, just open for 4bb preflop from any position, with any hand that's in your opening range for that position. It gives away no information. Some would say size this a bit smaller - I don't hate 3bb.

Some people say you should have different opening sizes from the cutoff and button. I'm not sure I won't end up doing that, but right now I'm not sure about that advice, particularly in games with less thinking opponents - I tend to think they may spot a smaller opening size and rather than noticing that it's related to position, believe it indicates a weaker hand. That's a possible plus when we have a monster in the CO or BTN, but it's not so great for most of our range from those positions and may lead to getting 3bet lighter and getting looked up lighter when we cbet.

In terms of standard sizing also, I'd recommend a standard 3bet size of 4x whatever villain made it.

4bet size, I'd size about 1.5x in position, and fold or shove out of position (depending on stack sizes, read and so on of course).

[supa]

Opening 4x from all positions is completely ridiculous for more reasons than I even understand. I was hoping someone who could explain why with deeper insight might chime in first but I'm impatient so I'll throw in my few simple thoughts.

4xing your entire range on the button is lighting money on fire. It means one of two things. You're either waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too tight otb and losing value from not stealing enough or you're risking 1-2 bbs more than you need to be when stealing with the bottom of your range. Quite simply put, why would anybody want to raise 4bbs then fold to a 3bet?

Same goes for 3bet sizing. Always 3betting 4 times the original raise must mean that you have no 3bet bluff range.

I know there's a lot more to it and I'm kinda hungover so I might not be relaying my point well, but I think you have it backward Boris.

Treebet? d0zer? Bikes? Anybody?

[BorisTheSpider]

Opening 4x from all positions is completely ridiculous for more reasons than I even understand. I was hoping someone who could explain why with deeper insight might chime in first but I'm impatient so I'll throw in my few simple thoughts.

4xing your entire range on the button is lighting money on fire. It means one of two things. You're either waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too tight otb and losing value from not stealing enough or you're risking 1-2 bbs more than you need to be when stealing with the bottom of your range. Quite simply put, why would anybody want to raise 4bbs then fold to a 3bet?

Same goes for 3bet sizing. Always 3betting 4 times the original raise must mean that you have no 3bet bluff range.

I know there's a lot more to it and I'm kinda hungover so I might not be relaying my point well, but I think you have it backward Boris.

Treebet? d0zer? Bikes? Anybody?

If you take it down post flop even half the time, when you've either raised 4bb from the button with a loose range, or 3bet 4x and been called, you're breakeven (ignoring the dead money). That is conservative and assumes no more money goes in that pot before you do take it down.

A lot of calls out of the blinds, or calls to a 3bet, are going to be played fit-or-fold, since they are mid/high PP, AK/AQ a lot of the time. You're repping a range that AQ/AJ/AT is going to worry about being dominated by and mid PP are going to setmine/fold against expecting a bigger PP, or Ax on an ace high flop. Sure, better players may play back at you, but I don't think it's going to be often enough to make this a completely invalid assumption.

And for 3bet bluffs, I'd rather be folding more good but not great PF hands out, and repping a big hand myself - it lets you know where you're at when the flop comes as you can put villain on a much narrower range, and if it's a scary flop you just built a big pot to push him off.

Those are my thoughts, they are open to further learning, but I just thought I'd throw them out there then if someone can help me improve my thinking process they know where I'm at right now.

[Icanhastreebet]

In a loose game FR what is your strategy? Are you raising bigger for value? ??

Depends if the game is loose passive or loose aggressive and where these aggressive or passive players are relative to your position.

In a tight game are you trying to see cheap flops??

Not sure what you mean by cheap flops.

In a very tight game you should only minraise and never raise more then min unless there is a fish you are targeting who never folds folds his big blind but doesn't 3b a lot or something along those lines.

And how does position factor into your bet sizing and why??

The earlier positions you should have a stronger range so you can raise bigger. Later position your range should be a lot weaker so you should be opening smaller because you will be 3b a lot etc.




Basically if no one is 3bing you and playing a lot you want to be raising bigger. If there is a huge fish who is 80/0 you should try raising as big as possible with better hands like AA because you want to play big pots heads up with this fish.

If there is a tonne of bad passive players you want to raise small with hands that play really well and get into as many multiway pots as possible. IE JTs.

If there are good players behind you, you should raise the same size as a beginner. I believe more then one raise size is going to be optimal but makes shit a lot more complicated so avoid this until you REALLY understand why you do what you are doing.

If there is a tonne of tight players you should always min open. I see no reason to do anything otherwise.

Iso's don't have to be your normal raise +1bb. If people aren't going to be 3bing your iso, iso as big as you can get away with. If people aren't going to be coldcalling your isos you should iso as small as you can.

There's just too much to talk about so more specific questions would make this a lot easier.

[gotigers1234]

Streetbet thank you for taking the time to help me....In regards to specific questions I will be honest I don't know enough about this game to ask very specific questions. So I should prob. read up before asking huge ass vague questions. Also I mean seeing cheap flops as in limp calling pre and flatting raises with everything except premium hands to see a flop against a nit. Anyways I hope I didn't waste your time man and thank you again for the insight.

[BorisTheSpider]

Streetbet thank you for taking the time to help me....In regards to specific questions I will be honest I don't know enough about this game to ask very specific questions. So I should prob. read up before asking huge ass vague questions. Also I mean seeing cheap flops as in limp calling pre and flatting raises with everything except premium hands to see a flop against a nit. Anyways I hope I didn't waste your time man and thank you again for the insight.

This is a bad move. Limping in in the first place is pretty much a poor move all the time at our sort of level, so first up stop limping. Maybe, occasionally, in a multi-way pot with other limpers in front of you, consider limping in behind with hands that play well in multi-way pots (hands that aren't enough to raise into multiple opponents, but could flop something big like a set, straight, flush etc. so small PP and suited connectors maybe.

Other than that, when you limp then call a raise, you look very weak. If you do then make a big hand, the nit won't pay you off when you get active post flop and start trying to get his money in the pot, as he'll be expecting you to limp with all sorts of hands leading to well concealed 2pair, straights, small flushes etc. so you're unlikely to get paid by top pair etc.

And for the sake of all that's good and holy, never limp/call out of position to see cheap flops. They are not so cheap as you think.

[gotigers1234]

The earlier positions you should have a stronger range so you can raise bigger. Later position your range should be a lot weaker so you should be opening smaller because you will be 3b a lot etc.

OK so why will people 3bet me more often on the button?? Is it because our range is wider here?? So we open smaller in later position b/c our range should be wide and to minimize our risk b/c people are going to raise more often. Is this how you are thinking about this in regards to minimizing our risk ? or is this not what you mean??

[BorisTheSpider]

OK so why will people 3bet me more often on the button?? Is it because our range is wider here?? So we open smaller in later position b/c our range should be wide and to minimize our risk b/c people are going to raise more often. Is this how you are thinking about this in regards to minimizing our risk ? or is this not what you mean??

Yes, that's what is being said. I'm not sure I 100% agree with it, as I've posted, but what is being said is that the guy in the blinds with a marginal hand will be more likely to play back at you because he knows your range for raising from the button is likely to be wider than from other positions.