bluff-jam turn 25nl

[Robb]

play a pot in position with the initiative and a hand that flops really, really well

I was thinking more along the lines of:

With suited connectors, we hope for one of two things: to flop a draw or a combo hand against an overpair, or to flop a pair on a low card board against hands like KQ that caught air.

In either instance, the flop is the critical point in the hand, and pot control is essential. If we have to bluff, we prefer the flop as we have better odds of making our hand and more fold equity.

If that's our plan, where did things start going awry?

[rpm]

I was thinking more along the lines of:

With suited connectors, we hope for one of two things: to flop a draw or a combo hand against an overpair, or to flop a pair on a low card board against hands like KQ that caught air.

these are two very specific examples of many regarding why suited connectors are valuable holdings but in the end it really comes down to shania, right? looking to play the widest range possible with a positive expectation. given that i will be in position a very large % of the time, have the initiative in the hand, and hold a hand which can flop equity with which to allow me to continue my aggression on a relatively large amountof boards postflop, i should have 87s in my opening range in this given situation. to be honest, i doubt i actually really need very much flop equity at all in order for this to be +EV, given how often i expect to win the pot preflop with no contest.

In either instance, the flop is the critical point in the hand, and pot control is essential. If we have to bluff, we prefer the flop as we have better odds of making our hand and more fold equity.

why is pot control essential? i understand that the equity of "drawing" hands decreases over streets vs "made hands", but i felt that given villain is going to be bluffing or semi-bluffing most of the time, that i would be able to leverage my fold equity better by calling the flop and jamming over his near-inevitable turn barrel. plus by doing so i get another bet out of the weakest part of his range, which is what we are after when we decide to attack a weak range, right?

If that's our plan, where did things start going awry?

i think my biggest flaw was thinking that, given the pot odds my shove would lay villain, he would fold hands like the nut flush draws. this was basically my whole reason for deciding to call the flop C/R with intentions of jamming the turn - to get him to incorrectly fold his flush draws or air which had me beat. it seems from people's responses that i was pretty wrong in expecting villain to ever fold a flush draw. for what little it's worth, villain here did fold pretty quickly. but i wasn't sure if i liked my bluff or not. hence the thread.

[Robb]

i doubt i actually really need very much flop equity at all in order for this to be +EV, given how often i expect to win the pot preflop with no contest.

I believe we can play this from the flop, ignoring preflop, for positive expectation. I'm thinking about how.

[Icanhastreebet]

I believe we can play this from the flop, ignoring preflop, for positive expectation. I'm thinking about how.

um, a cbet is going to show a positive expectation here so I don't understand what you're asking and it should show a larger expectation then checking back unless villain likes to BOTH c/r flop a tonne and c/fs turn a lot whenever he checks turn.

[Robb]

um, a cbet is going to show a positive expectation here so I don't understand what you're asking and it should show a larger expectation then checking back unless villain likes to BOTH c/r flop a tonne and c/fs turn a lot whenever he checks turn.

A cbet will show positive expectation if we don't follow it up with spew.

[rpm]

I was thinking more along the lines of:

With suited connectors, we hope for one of two things: to flop a draw or a combo hand against an overpair, or to flop a pair on a low card board against hands like KQ that caught air.

In either instance, the flop is the critical point in the hand, and pot control is essential. If we have to bluff, we prefer the flop as we have better odds of making our hand and more fold equity.

If that's our plan, where did things start going awry?

re-reading, i disagree with the bolded part quite strongly. i feel middle-ish suited connectors are some of the most versatile holdings we can have. they are profitable in far more situations than just looking to bink vs overpairs or out-flopping bricked overcard hands.