Congratulations to teh Super Meta Wolves

[wufwugy]

Boog, Galapogos, OngBonga, and Pascal. Well played. No specials is hard as shit but I would like to do it again.

Here's the dead thread weredeadwolfwhat - QuickTopic free message board hosting

And here's the crazzvette/spidyberge story


On the first day, Pascal and I were talking about the possibility of them being the same person or being friends, but didn't go too deeply into it. Then spidy doesn't show up or contact the wolves for 24 hours and I needed to keep him from being a drag on the game so modkilled him. Then Ong noticed at a poker table that crazz and spidy tanked in exactly the same way repeatedly. Then Pascal and Ong notice crazz posted in the game thread calling out Gala and Boog as wolves. This wasn't too telling by itself, but then crazz posted about wanting to "play a game" where people "guess the wolves" then we see who was most right by the end. This is when I realized that crazz and spidy at least shared information and crazz doesn't want to spoil the game but wants to show how smart she is, so I set out to prove the cheating

Pascal looked into it a lot too and found this crazzvette Windsor Ontario singles, Windsor Ontario women and discovered that spidy and crazz have shared one of the same IPs. I then started going over all the posts on the web I could find by crazz and spidy in an attempt to find the fullest truth.

The main thing I did was analyze their prose. The first significant distinction that stood out was that crazz always spaced between punctuation on both sides while spidy never spaced on either side. They had the exact same steam of consciousness with commas style with the same sort of thought processes and brevity, and they had the same exact usasges of initialism and signing. They both posted on a ton of different poker boards together but never seemed to acknowledge each other. They behaved as if they were alter egos where crazz was super over the top girly in a way that only a guy would think is legit, and spidy often tried to appear really masculine. I found evidence of them both misusing "thou" when they mean "though" and "personnel" when they mean "personal". Finally, what convinced me they're the same person and that crazz was cheating is that back in 2010 the differences between their prose was non-existent. Basically spidyberge used the exact same highly peculiar punctuation spacing that crazzvette did and does

By this time all the wolves were agreed that modkilling crazzvette is the best option. This is important because by then he had posted that gala boog and pascal were his most likely targets, and if everybody knew crazz had cheated, it would ruin the game. So I lied to crazz and told him that I would keep his cheating quiet and if he posted again he would be punished. He then conformed and never even protested. Ong pointed out to me how telling that is of his guilt. A little later spidy protested to me, but in that protest he mentioned he was a machinist, which curiously is exactly what the link Pascal found says crazzvette is. Combine this with every other fact and that they're the same age (Pascal found a spidy poker link with his age), and Pascal was happy with calling them the same person, and they are now banned


So we had a little mini-werewolf within a werewolf game of trying to figure out if crazz cheated and keep it quiet. Now we know that Fifty Shades of Crazz was written by a dude

[a500lbgorilla]

Jkids, I didn't figure it out, sorry.

But with Boog being an early vote on ong and the fact that the wolves, from my perspective, don't really have to do anything this game, yeah it didn't seem far fetched or even difficult for no wolves to lynch the villager on an early day.

What do they care who they lynch? Are they trying to avoid peeks, flush out specials, avoid vigs? No.. they're just waiting for the numbers to go down and avoid being the top lynch wagon.

I play bad, though. So you're probably right somehow.

[wufwugy]

Rilla, the clearing of boog by way of his ong bolds was pretty much inevitable. I would probably have done the same thing and have done it in the past.

[Pascal]

Good modding modkiller, cheers

[JKDS]

HOLY FUCK, Crazyspidey is who in the what now?

@Rilla: Good points, but part of the fun of being a wolf is lynching villagers. I just cant see them purposefully not doing so. Its equivalent to lurkerwinning imo.

@This Game as a Whole:

1) Village Mistakes: In my honest opinion, the village screwed up extremely hard in the early game. They (we) essentially threw away the majority of early and mid game lynches. For example, gabe and lolz seems to have been lynched for policy reasons instead of for being wolfy or even for information.

Further, many of the players were fairly inactive (again, self included). While they may have been posting, there wasnt a large amount of actual hunting going on. I know that I, personally, didnt actually really invest in hunting until my ong case materialized. But also I feel several of our other good hunters werent doing so either.

2) Great Wolves: Their night kills were, with the exception of the obvious one, spectacularrr. The villagers that would typically hunt early, were killed early. Anyone that gave the wolves problems were also killed. They also managed to do this without just defaulting to a "kill gabe n1, rilla n2, gg" method.

In addition to that, they were very good at manipulating the village. Boog is one good example. Ong is another. Just the fact that he survived an extra day with such a case against him is pretty amazing. Then we have Gala who was very early on the spidey wagon (during modkill talks? coincidence?) that helped him out, and pascal who was soul read by The Gabe and still managed to live till endgame.


So IMO, this game had poor village play and excellent wolf play and that resulted in a wolf win. Its hard to say its balanced or not after just a single game, but i feel like it really was just an example of getting massively outplayed in a fair game.

[JKDS]

Also FUUUUU wolves.

[JKDS]

Also Also!

I, at least, feel like i benefited a ton from reading the dead thread and watching the wolves move. If this game repeated, i think it will be much much harder for the wolves to win.

[wufwugy]

Then we have Gala who was very early on the spidey wagon (during modkill talks? coincidence?)

It was just me and Pascal in the wolves den in the first 24 hours. None of what the wolves did was based on any special information they got from me.

[NightGizmo]

Crazzvette was banned? That's a silver lining. I don't have to read her (his?) horrible posts anymore.

Congrats wolves, you destroyed us. And thanks for modding, wuf.

[NightGizmo]

Then Ong noticed at a poker table that crazz and spidy tanked in exactly the same way repeatedly.

Did you notify the poker room that he is multi-accounting and cheating?

[wufwugy]

Did you notify the poker room that he is multi-accounting and cheating?

That's up to Pascal and others. I didn't look into that aspect at all. It was merely the catalyst for looking deeper into the relationship. I know the real issue is the poker stuff, but I've only been dealing with the werewolf stuff. The forum mods can do what they think is best about the poker side

[wufwugy]

Also pokerstars is dead to me

[Keith]

I actually sorta dropped in and read and kinda kept up with this game for the first time in a long time. Congrats to the wolves .
"WOW" at the drama that wuf has revealed and how frickin stupid to try and cheat at a game where the whole point is to figure out who is lieing and angle shooting. Since they are assumed to be the same person it should be noted that not only did they try and cheat in this game they have also conspired to cheat in the FTR money added qualified members game . this was last month's results.

PokerStars Tournament #620239091, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $3.00/$0.30 USD
14 players
$250.00 USD added to the prize pool by PokerStars
Total Prize Pool: $292.00 USD
Tournament started 2012/10/30 20:00:00 WET [2012/10/30 16:00:00 ET]
Tournament finished 2012/10/30 21:44:22 WET [2012/10/30 17:44:22 ET]
1: P*** (Netherlands), $146.00 (50%)
2: s***** (Russia), $87.60 (30%)
3: j****** (United Kingdom), $58.40 (20%)
4: C****** (United Kingdom),
5: a****** (Ukraine),
6: d***** (United Kingdom),
7: D****** (Germany),
8: spidyberge (Canada),
9: a****** (Portugal),
10: crazzvette (Canada),
11: J****** (Canada),
12: D****** (United Kingdom),
13: K******* (United Kingdom),
14: O******* (United Kingdom),

Hopefully Pascal can take this evidence to stars ( and therefore Full Tilt) together with their IP addresses and get stars to investigate from their end.

edit : deleted the others players stars usernames . If you need the original result Pascal , I can PM them

[wufwugy]

dude keith you need to play again

[wufwugy]

We need to figure out a way to make skype work for us. It took boog and gala forever to get on skype due to skype itself fucking up, so I had to try several different things to get them to be able to see the convo. It appears that I had to go "online" instead of the normal "invisible" and we had to all friend each other

Anywho, we need a system that works fluidly. And I have a question: I just deleted contacts on skype, does this mean that I no longer show up as online to those contacts? One of the problems of skype is that some of us only use it when we're wolves, so having the wrong contacts would end up giving up the roles to other players who use it regularly

[Galapogos]

Then we have Gala who was very early on the spidey wagon (during modkill talks? coincidence?)

No, that was just the fact that every single game I play I always push for lynching the noob. He was obviously gonna get lynched for being the noob at an early point anyway and that would look bad on me if anyone recalled how I play or looked into it.

I haven't had a lot of free time the past while so I was in the wolves den even less than I posted. I only showed up to trade e-high-fives with Ong for slipping the lynch and your impending reaction. Then I was there the night we went for the no-nom. I wanted to nom one of our own but that was deemed to risky

[Galapogos]

BTW, I loved the fact that you built up a solid case against Ong, went to bed with support starting to build behind you, then you wake up and the village lynched one of their best instead. One of my favorite WW moments.

[JKDS]

It seems like i was implying something with that quote, but its meant to read "During modkill talks, or coincidence?".

Plays a play either way.

And yeah, i didnt know how the fuck gabe was lynched instead of ong. I never got around to rereading that part of the thread :/

[wufwugy]

Part of me was upset that Ong was set on his death wish because it would have been hilaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarious for the wolves to get JKDS lynched after Gabe died

[JKDS]

The dead thread was convinced i was a wolf at that time anyway, it was probably a very real possibility.

THO I DUNNO WHY

[rong]

Gg wolves, well played. Your under the radar approach worked perfectly, even if it wasn't intentional. Fuck you for killing me. I'm surprised you didn't leave me around to go after JKDS.

Overall I prefer games with some form of special. Rilla summed up why. The wolves have no real job other than not getting noticed. There's no pressure for them to do anything aside from avoid death and gently steer the village away from other wolves.

If we are to play another game similar to this I would adjust it to give the village some form of reduced seer power. Even if its just a one shot seer who gets a night 3 look up but can only report it on night 4 or, I dunno but something to give the village some power and/or give the wolves something else to occupy them.

With the numbers used, this would typically have a seer, angel and vig and the wolves still have a good shot at winning. It just seemed terribly unbalanced.

[gabe]

gg wolves

i know im a villager. the wolves mustve thought gizmo dying would be an easy path to lynching me.

jyms / pascal /ong are the only 3 voting for me. there is a 0% chance that these are all villagers. i like the argument for ongbonga so im sticking with him.

the circumstantial evidence on me is just the same as that on the next guy. this is actual real direct evidence of who is a wolf. getting me lynched had to be the priority after gizmo was shown to be a villager but the only resistance comes from me, because im a villager! if one of those isnt a wolf ill seriously eat my hat and post a video of it in the next game i play

cmon guys this was a pretty legit ultimatum!

[Pascal]

Did you notify the poker room that he is multi-accounting and cheating?

Crazz claims that spidyberge is "her boyfriend" but a lot of the stuff that was posted online didn't add up - on one forum she posted that her boyfriend had introduced her to poker etc and talked about them still being together but like 4 months before on a different forum she'd posted saying that she was single. The Stars accounts were the only thing that kept me wary but it wouldn't be hard to have a PC and a laptop and your dad/mum's ID to be able to play in more freerolls or whatever.

Regardless, the amount of evidence was too overwhelming to ignore and at the very least they tried to ruin our WW game

[kiwiMark]

Probably no harm in shipping Stars an email (aside from the effort involved for you, of course, which I guess is non-trivial) - it's not like Stars is going to act based solely off a tip in an email (so I don't think you need to feel you're 100% certain in order to make allegations in good conscience), but it will trigger whatever their own investigating process is.

[Hoopy]

Well played wolves, especially BooG.

The game was very hard to play as a villager with all the confusion and paranoia floating around in the thread. I think we made a mistake going for shotglass/DTB early, imo crazzvette then lolzzz would have been better for the village.

Also without specials it's hard to have confirmed villagers to trust later on. Reading the dead thread was neat though, the info wagons give is more useful than I thought.

[bigred]

I want to be angry at Dranger for bolding so quickly but I think I had Rilla > boog. Sorry for not posting that day, was busy traveling through Colorado for Thanksgiving, but my list was going to be Pascal > Rilla > Boog. I was convinced one of Hoopy/Rilla was a wolf because Galap was hovering the thread right before his death and I figured he was coordinating with one of the players in case some rescinded and they could last minute train someone. Was probably never lynching boog in that day.

[OngBonga]

Bet you can't guess who finished in 14th beginning with O.

Talking myself out of lynch while JKDS slept is my favourite ww moment too. Had that not happened, I doubt we no nom. The fact crazz was modkilled played a part in our decision, at least from my perspective. Losing crazz and spidy was bad for the village and the no nom gave you a day back. But honestly, I can't pretend that was the main reason. We were being cocky.

gg village, and thanks spidy for not posting for the first 24 hours and getting me on the wolf team.

[rong]

As far as I'm concerned ong stared a villager and therefore was a villager and lost.

[a500lbgorilla]

There are many other things specials give us not yet mentioned, like outs and fake outs and the periods that follow. These are times when villagers make themselves known since they can decompress the new info immediately, while wolves usually reel for a bit. These also help a few lucky villagers avoid mislynches which are also village boons.

I had hoped, probably mistakenly, I had forced the hope that talking during the night would be an -alike to this in this game, but it wouldn't have.

In this game there was no info hidden from the wolves. Nothing to surprise them and nothing to worry them. There's just no game.

Also, the village is never going to be able to cooordinate and make better use of the early days because that's the whole challenge to the village - find some way to find each other. And you can't do that on tone reads all the way through.

Though there were some basic things that we could have done like force everyone on to one of two wagons and focus discussions on making decisions that were in the good of the village, but experience should hint at how calamitous that would be even with specials.

I said it before when the idea of no specials came up, its just not a good idea.

[a500lbgorilla]

gg wolves




cmon guys this was a pretty legit ultimatum!

Right for the wrong reasons though. They wanted you dead because ong was a wolf, not because you were a high val target.

In hindsight I should have focused more on your lynching, I just new why I did it and I was way off. And after being double gutted from your and jyms lynch, I just wanted some peace.

[jyms]

I said it before when the idea of no specials came up, its just not a good idea.

I was thinking this too before the game started. I spent some time going over would more wolves or less make it easier. More could control lynches but less would make it needle in a haystack. The wolves can play a game with every bit of info, and not one villager can make a difference even if they had a soul read.

[a500lbgorilla]

though that's not to say the wolves didn't play well with the hand dealt them. Boog played perfectly. I probably would have overreached as a wolf and been caught earlier than even ong, in truth. So def gg. Can't fault the winners for winning.

[OngBonga]

Told you next time I was wolf I'd play with you rilla. I accidentally outed you in the dead thread by saying I didn't want to nom you n1 like last time I was wolf. I didn't want to nom you at all, so was really pleased the others picked off hoopy last night.

Had I not got lynched when I did, had that been a villager instead, we'd have probably not nommed again. This time it wouldn't give you the extra day, but deprive the village of info. So well done for lynching me when you did.

So who will be the first wolf team to not nom at all and go for the win by lynch? It can only work in a game of no specials.

[wufwugy]

We have felt for a while that villagers were winning too much due to so many regs who know each other, so the idea of a no special ww that would make the village work extra hard was intriguing. im upset bikes' pants were wadded up at the time because he had said he wanted to play this gametype, and he's a really astute villager

[a500lbgorilla]

Told you next time I was wolf I'd play with you rilla.

You and yours beat me and mine. And I hate you for it.



And wuf, I'm not railing against your choice of game-format. Nothing wrong with giving it a run.

I'm more just digging through the last dredges of blechk I have for it.

[wufwugy]

yeah i knew no specials wasn't your cup o tea based on stuff you've said in the past

[wufwugy]

honestly im excited about jkds next spectacularrrrr with no nights. we need to figure out how to do no nights. i wanted to keep doing it in this game, but i anticipated some serious complaining about how it ruined the game when it got to the end period

[BooG690]

I think Ong and I agreed on the notion that we'd like to beat the village by getting both rilla and gabe lynched. I didn't think we'd pull it off but dranger made that possible (thanks dranger!). But, additionally, rilla would have never been nommed in the last few days because he was so confused throughout the game. I somehow became a confirmed villager in his eyes and, with his influence (and in my opinion), it would've been bad for my credentials to nom him.

In reference to future games and what we can do better as a village: as a villager, POST and lynch inactives. I'll probably be among the lowest posters but posting inactives, especially with how the games have been playing recently, is ALWAYS the way to go. I'll be making a point of that next game. It was way to easy for 75% of our wolves to hide among the inactives. Some may call it cheap but villagers like bigred and lolzzzz made that option possible and possibly optimal. Is it in the spirit of the game? Probably not.

In response to me becoming more active during the last few days, I don't THAT makes me a worse wolf. Sure, the dead thread saw through it but, with players like JKDS, I probably wouldn't have done that. To be honest, the only reason I tried to take the village over was because we nom'd JKDS and it was, at the moment, an open village to take.

Anyway, I had a lot of fun this game. It was probably the best game I played and the one I learned the most from.

[BooG690]

Also, I think Ong deserves a lot of credit for getting out of that spot, even with a fellow wolf on his bandwagon. That was pretty amazing.

[OngBonga]

No nights is easy to work imo, so long as the village have specials too so any advantage wolves gain through extra discussion is balanced by vig and seer.
During the first 24 hours of day, while wolves/specials make their decisions, village can talk about whatever, but votes do not count. Simple. The "no hunting" rule is really not very good, as it just means people don't bother posting anything other than "got heem" or "wow that sucks" etc.

Who's modding next? I'll mod one happily, but I'll have to have minimum posting rules to make up for the lack of onging.

[OngBonga]

Thanks boog, it made me laugh when the wolves came into the den to say things like "holy fuck even I wanted you dead". It woulda been just too perfect if JK woke up the day I actually got lynched to find out he had been lynched. If I pushed for that lynch, maybe it could've happened. I just thought that it was too wolfy to accuse JK of being a wolf when he presents such a case on me.

[wufwugy]

No nights is easy to work imo, so long as the village have specials too so any advantage wolves gain through extra discussion is balanced by vig and seer.
During the first 24 hours of day, while wolves/specials make their decisions, village can talk about whatever, but votes do not count. Simple. The "no hunting" rule is really not very good, as it just means people don't bother posting anything other than "got heem" or "wow that sucks" etc.

Who's modding next? I'll mod one happily, but I'll have to have minimum posting rules to make up for the lack of onging.

Yeah I think in the next game I mod the rule will be that everybody must post more than me.

[JKDS]

HOW ONG NOT DIE? HOWWWWWWW /jackiechan meme

Also, i plan on modding the next one. Im working out some details as the setup is heavily borrowed from another site. The issue is that it typically uses a fixed player pool of 13...but i dont want to restrict that. Im guessing 2 weeks max and ill have it up.

[OngBonga]

Yeah if and when I mod one I'll totally steal a balanced game from MS. There's larger games to browse there than 13-seaters though JK, check the NY forum.

[OngBonga]

Also, mods should stop getting lazy with death scenes. When I mod, death scenes will be like a Tarantino script, only coming from a semi-retarded stoner, instead of a talented screenwriter.

[wufwugy]

lol. you say that now

[JKDS]

Yeah if and when I mod one I'll totally steal a balanced game from MS. There's larger games to browse there than 13-seaters though JK, check the NY forum.

Pah-lease. Im fully aware of all their game types ong :P

The problem with their setups though, is that they have a fixed number of players. Thats not something that makes sense for our forum, and so the challenge is taking an existing fun setup and then bending it to a variable style.

Game will be fun though. There are "specials" I guess, but theyre kinda weak. The game centers around a lot of tomfoolery where each of 3 roles (villager, special, wolf) try to look like another. Also, its completely nightless. Day ends and BAM. New day. It was probably my favorite game on that site.


ALTERNATIVELY, ill just steal a different one that is way more forgiving in terms of player pool size...because in that one balance is not guarenteed O.O

[OngBonga]

Wuf, I didn't want to moan at you during the game, you were doing such a good job of modding. But I do miss the write ups and death scenes. Your gifs are great though.

Game starting in 2 weeks is kinda badly timed, it will prob clash with xmas and new year. Even I might find it tough to commit any serious time to the game at that time of year. We should either get one started asap or wait for the new year imo. How long did this one take? Three weeks?

[wufwugy]

i decided to mod this game because i wasnt going to do any write ups. it takes about 10x as much effort to mod if you're intent on making non-garbage stories

[OngBonga]

Who said anything about non-garbage stories?

[GatorJH]

I honestly lost interest when I died on night 1. GG wolves.

[wufwugy]

Who said anything about non-garbage stories?

Somebody who thinks no story is better than a bad story

[OngBonga]

Somebody who thinks no story is better than a bad story

No story is bad if it's violent enough.

[wufwugy]

So apparently it was you who was referring to non-garbage stories