Checked/raise OTF?

[agnesamurphy]

Lock Poker - NLH 9-max - $1.5 + $0.20 - 20/100/200 blinds - 2 players

BB (Hero) - 6,562
SB/BTN - 6,938

Dealt to Hero - J6

Villain raises to 600, Hero calls 400
Pot is 1240

*** FLOP *** - 7, 3, J

Hero checks, Villain bets 600, Hero calls 600
Pot is 2440

*** TURN *** 4

Hero bets 1,220, Villain calls 1,220
Pot is 4880

*** RIVER *** Q

Hero is all-in, Villain calls
Villain shows QK

Hero takes 2nd place

MadMojoMonkey (my fiance, FYI) suggested that I should have checked/raise OTF? Would that have been a better approach to this hand? If not, what would have been a better approach, or did I play it okay?

The villain might have folded if I check/raised, since it would have been the first time I had done that.

[Fielmann]

I would mostly have check-raised on the flop, but I think the more important mistakes in this hand were made pre-flop (why are you calling a big raise out of position with J6o?) and on the river (what worse hands do you think he's calling with?).

Also, don't post results.

[Luco]

FYI I minraise on the button when it gets to HU, but villain's 3bb is fairly standard and I see it all the time.

Without good reads I fold pre here.
As played c/r flop
As played c/c or c/f river depending on reads.

[Pascal]

This is an easy fold pre to wait for a better spot

[postiga]

Fold pre, as played c-raise flop or c-shove turn. Fold in that river as played

[donkbee]

I don't really mind how you played it post flop. I actually kinda like it. You can c/r the flop, but you don't have to.

[agnesamurphy]

I would mostly have check-raised on the flop, but I think the more important mistakes in this hand were made pre-flop (why are you calling a big raise out of position with J6o?) and on the river (what worse hands do you think he's calling with?).

Also, don't post results.

Perhaps I should have said this on the onset, but I typically play a very aggressive game HU, raising to 3x almost every hand. I do this because most folks at these stakes have no idea how to play HU and bullying works well for me.

The Villain had been adjusting to that style, and raising his buttons instead of just limping or even folding. I didn't see Villain's raise as necessarily a representation of strength, but rather as an adjustment to my game.

I was pot-committed by the river, and hoped the Villain caught second or third pair or had a busted spade draw. If he caught the queen at the end, then he caught the queen at the end.

[Fielmann]

The Villain had been adjusting to that style, and raising his buttons instead of just limping or even folding. I didn't see Villain's raise as necessarily a representation of strength, but rather as an adjustment to my game.

J6o is hardly in the top 60% of hands. Even if villain is raising very wide, his nothing is usually still better than your nothing. And out of position is generally not a position where you can hope to outplay him post flop.
If you're sure he's FOS, you are probably better off 3-betting him.

I was pot-committed by the river, and hoped the Villain caught second or third pair or had a busted spade draw. If he caught the queen at the end, then he caught the queen at the end.

1. When you have like 4100 and the pot is 4880 why do you think you are pot-committed?
2. Why would being pot-committed be a reason to bet?
3. Exactly how many of his second-pair holdings do you beat?
4. Why would him having a busted spade draw be a reason to bet?

[Luco]

Perhaps I should have said this on the onset, but I typically play a very aggressive game HU, raising to 3x almost every hand. I do this because most folks at these stakes have no idea how to play HU and bullying works well for me.

I agree, very few peeps at these stakes can play HU and you should absolutely be raising a lot. However you should be open raising in position, not calling OOP. The two main EV differences are being IP for the rest of the hand (ldo) and preflop fold equity.

If you have edge over your opponent, you could try open raising just 2.5x or even minraise IP. Not only does it make steals more profitable but it also allows you too see some more flops, which is desirable if you have post flop edge.

[donkbee]

Most people in this thread seem to think that calling the raise with J6 here is a huge mistake. While it might be a mistake depending on the amount the villain is raising on the button and hero's edge post flop, it is not the huge mistake that most here are trying to make it out to be.

[Fielmann]

Yes and no. I agree that it may not be a huge mistake in a particular hand, including this one. I think that what we have (implicitly) been talking about, is such plays nevertheless being a very big leak in one's game. A beginner who makes such a play in one hand she posted is likely to be making them very often, because she has the chance to make them very often, and this will have a big effect on her win rate.

[Luco]

I've always felt that good HU play is more about board textures and villain tendencies than your actual hole cards. For example if the villain is a real fit-or-fold type you can call pre with any two here.

The Villain had been adjusting to that style, and raising his buttons instead of just limping or even folding. I didn't see Villain's raise as necessarily a representation of strength, but rather as an adjustment to my game.

This is potentially a bigger worry than the preflop call imo. What makes you think it was an adjustment as opposed to just a good run of cards? Don't give them undue credit, someone who limps and folds too much doesn't often have the balls to start bluffing moar. If you're confident he has tried to adjust though, he's out of his comfort zone and right where you want him, gg.

[donkbee]

Yes and no. I agree that it may not be a huge mistake in a particular hand, including this one. I think that what we have (implicitly) been talking about, is such plays nevertheless being a very big leak in one's game. A beginner who makes such a play in one hand she posted is likely to be making them very often, because she has the chance to make them very often, and this will have a big effect on her win rate.

I mean you totally missed my entire point, but whatever you say!

[simpledude16]

Yes and no. I agree that it may not be a huge mistake in a particular hand, including this one. I think that what we have (implicitly) been talking about, is such plays nevertheless being a very big leak in one's game. A beginner who makes such a play in one hand she posted is likely to be making them very often, because she has the chance to make them very often, and this will have a big effect on her win rate.

you dont seem to understand donkbees post very well, ITS NOT A MISTAKE

[chardrian]

30 BBs deep. I think the call pre is a pretty clear mistake.

Postflop seems well played to me.

[donkbee]

30 BBs deep. I think the call pre is a pretty clear mistake.

There will be times that I will call with worse than J6 here with these stacks. I think it's very incorrect to say that it's a clear mistake just based off stack size.

[chardrian]

There really isn't that much worse than J6. So the only way you are calling with J6 or worse here is if you plan on bluffing pretty much everytime. That's fine - but as a general notion, the call with 30 BBs is still to me a pretty clear mistake with no other info (and we weren't provided with any other info).

When you call, the flop will have 1240. And you will have basically 6k effective. Once the flop comes, your only real option is going to be to donklead, or checkraise for a good chunk (basically half of) your stack.

[donkbee]

So the only way you are calling with J6 or worse here is if you plan on bluffing pretty much everytime.

Definitely untrue. You talk as if J6 has zero value. If you think that's true, you def need to play more HU. I don't say this to be rude, I say this because it's the truth.

When you call, the flop will have 1240. And you will have basically 6k effective. Once the flop comes, your only real option is going to be to donklead, or checkraise for a good chunk (basically half of) your stack.

Do you really think that 30bb starting stack is that small? I play HU with 25bb stacks on a daily basis and I always have more options than this when I call preflop. And FWIW, I flat lots of flops and it's quite +EV when I do so.

[d0zer]

Cb, u crazy. It's not even sooted, and it's a 3x. I can't see how we're passing up value folding pre unless we're extremely confident postflop to the point that calling atc is +ev.

[simpledude16]

Cb, u crazy. It's not even sooted, and it's a 3x. I can't see how we're passing up value folding pre unless we're extremely confident postflop to the point that calling atc is +ev.

there is a diff between j6o and atc, also you realize everytime you fold you lose 1bb right, calling doesnt have to be +ev just more +ev than folding.

[d0zer]

there is a diff between j6o and atc, also you realize everytime you fold you lose 1bb right, calling doesnt have to be +ev just more +ev than folding.

Yeah I get it, I'm still suggesting that calling is a mistake. We're given no indication of villain's tendancies, and villains that 3x here tend to have tighter ranges absent any other read.

[simpledude16]

ok done trying to explain to ppl who have 0 idea how to play hu why this isnt a mistake, you guys keep folding all your "garbage hands"

[donkbee]

Yeah I get it, I'm still suggesting that calling is a mistake. We're given no indication of villain's tendancies, and villains that 3x here tend to have tighter ranges absent any other read.

I already said in an above post that calling might be a mistake, but if it is, it's not the mistake people in this thread are trying to make it out to be. In fact, you need reads to make it a mistake to call, not the other way around. The only reason I'm still posting is because the arguments people are trying to make for calling being bad are incorrect and using terrible logic.

I agree with simpledude, though, about being done with the thread. Most the people here obviously aren't going to be convinced, and there isn't much else to say. And besides, we're both fine with everyone folding too much while playing HU because it makes us money.

[d0zer]

ok done trying to explain to ppl who have 0 idea how to play hu why this isnt a mistake, you guys keep folding all your "garbage hands"

You've hardly done anything in this thread to explain anything to anyone about HU play, but if you're done then I guess we'll just have to live without your low content condescending posts

Apologies to courtbee for calling u crazy -- I thought u were advocating this as a clear call. Agreed that it's closer to borderline than most think. I think the factors against it being a call are that it's the end of a micro 1-table sng, villain is more likely to have a much tighter 3x opening range than in a husng, probably won't be stealing enough, and probably folding too much to our steals, so our strategy should be focused on exploiting that until proven otherwise. I'm not sure how we get to the end of a 1tbl sng with no reads, but if put in that situation I think those are safeish assumptions to make of the typical micro sng villain.

[donkbee]

Apologies to courtbee for calling u crazy

np, it was actually a refreshing change from all the things I've been called after appearing on the Big Game

Agreed that it's closer to borderline than most think. I think the factors against it being a call are that it's the end of a micro 1-table sng, villain is more likely to have a much tighter 3x opening range than in a husng, probably won't be stealing enough, and probably folding too much to our steals, so our strategy should be focused on exploiting that until proven otherwise. I'm not sure how we get to the end of a 1tbl sng with no reads, but if put in that situation I think those are safeish assumptions to make of the typical micro sng villain.

These are definitely more reasonable arguments for folding than the rest of the posts in this thread.

[Pascal]

ok done trying to explain to ppl who have 0 idea how to play hu why this isnt a mistake, you guys keep folding all your "garbage hands"

Chill man...

While it might be a mistake depending on the amount the villain is raising on the button and hero's edge post flop, it is not the huge mistake that most here are trying to make it out to be.

you dont seem to understand donkbees post very well, ITS NOT A MISTAKE

You don't seem to understand donkbee's post very well either.

I thought u were advocating this as a clear call. Agreed that it's closer to borderline than most think. I think the factors against it being a call are that it's the end of a micro 1-table sng, villain is more likely to have a much tighter 3x opening range than in a husng, probably won't be stealing enough, and probably folding too much to our steals, so our strategy should be focused on exploiting that until proven otherwise. I'm not sure how we get to the end of a 1tbl sng with no reads, but if put in that situation I think those are safeish assumptions to make of the typical micro sng villain.

d0zer puts the reasons I was thinking into words better than I could have.

Some good posts in here,

[simpledude16]

You don't seem to understand donkbee's post very well

Except I talk to her on a regular basis and am pretty sure she thinks it's not a mistake, maybe I confused her post with another convo we had but I would be surprised if she thought it was a mistake.

[simpledude16]

Also telling me to chill because I say things that are truthful/make you feel butthurt doesn't make them less true. This forum is pretty ridiculous with how narrow minded most posters seem to more unconventional play or different play than the normal nitty play that seems to be advocated on here. Just trying new things out regardless of how bad they might seem would do alot of people good to see the game from a diff pov. If you always do the same thing you will always get the same result just remember that.

[simpledude16]

d0zer puts the reasons I was thinking into words better than I could have.

Standard pascal taking a good post and basically putting the +1 like he has a clue of what is going on yet couldn't make that post himself

[chardrian]

Definitely untrue. You talk as if J6 has zero value. If you think that's true, you def need to play more HU. I don't say this to be rude, I say this because it's the truth.

I mean every hand has some value - but J6o is a hand I put squarely in the very small value category even heads up - especially when we are OOP.

Do you really think that 30bb starting stack is that small? I play HU with 25bb stacks on a daily basis and I always have more options than this when I call preflop. And FWIW, I flat lots of flops and it's quite +EV when I do so.

I don't think 30 BBs is small. I know it isn't that difficult in many tournaments to get heads up with less than 15 BBs. But when you call a 3BB raise preflop, the potsize is going to get inflated much quicker than if you call a 2x raise.

As I said before, as long as you have a reason and a plan for flatting preflop, then by all means you can go for it. But with the info provided (which was none), then I still stand by my statement that flatting pre here OOP is a mistake. As a default play, the play should be to fold pre.

[Pascal]

Also telling me to chill because I say things that are truthful/make you feel butthurt doesn't make them less true. This forum is pretty ridiculous with how narrow minded most posters seem to more unconventional play or different play than the normal nitty play that seems to be advocated on here. Just trying new things out regardless of how bad they might seem would do alot of people good to see the game from a diff pov. If you always do the same thing you will always get the same result just remember that.

Lol. Not sure why I'm even bother to replying to this. All I've done is try and listen to what you've had to say about heads up to learn from you as I think differently and I'd be interested in learning what you think. All you've done is be aggro and a bit doltish. If you wanna help me learn how to play heads up better then I'd be willing to learn but thinking I'll have no thoughts in my head already and I'll take everything you say as gospel without questioning you is a bit arrogant imo.

Hope you had a good Christmas tho