300 Sandwich Proposal controversy

[aubreymcfate]

http://jezebel.com/lady-earns-engage...hes-1383822830

I hate this article so much. I hate all the bullshit controversy surrounding this.

I'd share my thoughts but I'm at work and should do something productive for a bit before returning to type a rant, but I wanted to feel vindicated in my rage, so I call to you guys to help me out here.

And I like jezebel. I'm a feminist, no shame in saying it. But this article... This whole "issue" is just so fucking infuriating, makes me want to slap every self-righteous bitch who's whining about it.

[MadMojoMonkey]

You posted this thread w/o a picture of a sandwich for us?

Fucking thankless!

For reals, though:
Sounds more like cuteness than coercion. Seriously, that guy must have had an internal dialogue that went something like this:
"Not another sandwich! Please god let her make some pasta or nachos or something... anything but another fucking sandwich!"
"I better eat this sandwich, or she'll be disappointed. I DO want some sex, and eating this can't hurt."
"Only 130 more to go, c'mon man. You're more than half-way there! YOU CAN DO IT!"

[aubreymcfate]

the only thing right about that article is the seriously delicious sandwich they posted



there, i've fulfilled my feminine duty for this forum.

[abelardx]

Now I'm hungry.

[surviva316]

I too thought that sandwich looked delicious. Sounds like the guy's a douche, as per: "“You women read all these magazines to get advice on how to keep a man, and it’s so easy. We’re not complex. Just do something nice for us. Like make a sandwich.” There exist some guys out there who are douches. /conversation

Not sure of my thoughts on the girlfriend endorsing this by making a blog about it, or the feminist blogger publicizing the blog that endorses the douchiness, or the FTRer who rants about the blog that rants about the other blog that endorses the douchiness that I otherwise would never have heard about.

[aubreymcfate]

I too thought that sandwich looked delicious. Sounds like the guy's a douche, as per: "“You women read all these magazines to get advice on how to keep a man, and it’s so easy. We’re not complex. Just do something nice for us. Like make a sandwich.” There exist some guys out there who are douches. /conversation

Not sure of my thoughts on the girlfriend endorsing this by making a blog about it, or the feminist blogger publicizing the blog that endorses the douchiness, or the FTRer who rants about the blog that rants about the other blog that endorses the douchiness that I otherwise would never have heard about.

meh ranting is cathartic. And I can't help but take major issue with feminists sometimes when really, overall, we're on the same page. Seeing them act so ridiculously silly is so frustrating.

also I really don't think that comment makes him douche-y. At all. Wouldn't be surprised if the last part was kind of tongue-in-cheek, because yes the sandwich is used as a sexist insult all the time by millions of douches worldwide. But in reality? Making a sandwich is pretty nice. For anyone. And doing something nice for the one you love is also pretty cool.

[NightGizmo]

It doesn't look like the blog is all that serious. If the woman was crazy enough to be with a douche that uses number of sandwiches as marriage criteria, she'd probably become a sandwich-making machine to get to 300 (instead she's only about halfway done after 15 months). And from the comments in the article, it looks like the guy cooks more often than she does (and full meals, not sandwiches).

However, the article made me laugh with this line: "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? I don't know, can the summer's day make me a fucking sandwich?"

[surviva316]

also I really don't think that comment makes him douche-y. At all. Wouldn't be surprised if the last part was kind of tongue-in-cheek, because yes the sandwich is used as a sexist insult all the time by millions of douches worldwide. But in reality? Making a sandwich is pretty nice. For anyone. And doing something nice for the one you love is also pretty cool.

I mean that it's douche-y in itself, independent of consideration of misogyny. Maybe I should have used a different word than "douche" because that seems pretty sex-dependent.

I mean that it's an egocentric view of a relationship. The "Just make me a sandwich part" was almost definitely tongue-in-cheek but the clause "You women read all these magazines to get advice on how to keep a man" is way more problematic anyway. I do 99% of the cooking in our house, and if my fiance treated it as some sort of ultimatum to keep her around, I would quite literally tell her to fuck herself. We just would never even dream of viewing our relationship that way. We "keep" each other around because we like love each other and enjoy each other's company and crap. We do nice things for each other because we like making each other happy (for the most part; there are some nice things we do for each other to keep from pissing each other off). Viewing the relationship in terms of what YOU bring to the table that's gonna keep ME around takes quite the ego.

As for the housework, we view it as there are things that need to get done, and we just have it done with whomever/however makes the most sense. I cook and tend the plants and deal with the dog because I work from home and I like to cook and I'm pretty good at it, etc. She does the laundry and a lot of the cleaning because she hates those things less than I do. If either of us has our feet up watching TV while the other one runs around doing housework, then the person with their feet up is probably going to feel genuinely apologetic for not helping or be thanking the other person profusely for taking care of things after a rough day at work (for example).

Whatever, not everyone in every relationship does everything the same way and that's fine, but that quote from the boyfriend drips with egotism on so many levels that dismissing any single part of it as tongue-in-cheek doesn't totally excuse it. I'm not taking it as a reflection on all men or a commentary on sexual dynamics in general or anything like that (though those may or may not be true); I'm just saying that if I caught one of my little cousins or something talking to his girlfriend like that, I'd shake my head and tell them to get their head out of their ass.

Again, whether this means it earns a post on a feminist blog or any of that is a different discussion.

[boost]

The Republican Party is self destructing with infighting factions, and now feminist are deriding other feminist for being too feminist-- today is a marvelous day to be alive!

[aubreymcfate]

I don't think they're being "too" feminist at all. I think they're being ridiculous, judgmental, and hyperbolic.

[surviva316]

ridiculous, judgmental, and hyperbolic.

Sounds like a feminist to me.

OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH!

[abelardx]

I'm assuming he makes a sht ton of money and they totally deserve each other.

[surviva316]

Just kidding. I'm about 10x's more pro-feminist than I am anit-, but you walked into that one.

[aubreymcfate]

[aubreymcfate]

feminist icon

[bikes]

this makes me sad

[surviva316]

Randomly stumbled across this site: http://www.returnofkings.com/2247/wi...p-you-get-laid. WTF?

You have to Ctrl + A to read because I guess they're so edgy and cool.

[spoonitnow]

Fuck third-wave feminism and fuck Jezebel.

[aubreymcfate]

Fuck third-wave feminism

disagree whole-heartedly. what's wrong with the concept of third-wave feminism? (unless you're talking about very specific things that stem from third-wave feminism that you disagree with, which, okay, fine, but third-wave feminism is, broadly speaking, not at all a bad thing.)

and fuck Jezebel.

agreed whole-heartedly. i'm fucking done with them. so sick of their complete disregard for nuance or understanding, their blanket vitriol. no critical thinking whatsoever.

[aubreymcfate]

actually i've decided i am not getting into any more debates about feminism today, especially not with you spoon. no offense lol but i'm not zen enough to argue with someone like you about feminism.

[bikes]

[a500lbgorilla]

If a woman made me 300 sandwiches on demand, I'd likely be buying a ring. Unless she works at my favorite deli or somesuch.

The aside here is that when you paint the world inside these compelling narratives like feminism mach 4, it's hard for you to see situations in novel or even intuitive ways. So what seems like a pretty awesome side project that grows organically from their relationship which leads up to a proposal wrapped in a story becomes a despicable extension of the oppression at the hands (mands) of the Institute of Man (Man).

I remember on NPR they were interviewing this devistatingly smart girl from a real African state talking about how she had to learn the coded racism of the American culture - that watermelon and fried chicken were an insult. Because to her, they just watermelon and fried chicken.

This woman's man loves himself some sandwiches and loves his woman for throwing them together, if she's on board, all seems grand. God forbid she isn't aware of the invisible oppression she's subjugating herself to.

[a500lbgorilla]

Comments are pretty good - '"You've been up for 15 minutes and you haven't made me a sandwich?" Seriously, dude? Damnit, now I'm angry and I want a BLT.

(Which is not that different from how I usually feel, to be honest.)'

'That sandwich in that picture needs to get in my belly.'

[aubreymcfate]

If a woman made me 300 sandwiches on demand, I'd likely be buying a ring. Unless she works at my favorite deli or somesuch.

The aside here is that when you paint the world inside these compelling narratives like feminism mach 4, it's hard for you to see situations in novel or even intuitive ways. So what seems like a pretty awesome side project that grows organically from their relationship which leads up to a proposal wrapped in a story becomes a despicable extension of the oppression at the hands (mands) of the Institute of Man (Man).

I remember on NPR they were interviewing this devistatingly smart girl from a real African state talking about how she had to learn the coded racism of the American culture - that watermelon and fried chicken were an insult. Because to her, they just watermelon and fried chicken.

This woman's man loves himself some sandwiches and loves his woman for throwing them together, if she's on board, all seems grand. God forbid she isn't aware of the invisible oppression she's subjugating herself to.

Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. Sometimes things are as sexist (or any -ist) as they seem. Sometimes they're not. Sometimes they kind of are. Life is a spectrum. Of course there are patterns to human behavior and it's worth analyzing without a doubt. But to have such a kneejerk and hyperbolic reaction to something like this.. man, it's just embarrassing.

[Chelle]

.

[Chelle]

came for sandwiches - am disappoint.

[spoonitnow]

disagree whole-heartedly. what's wrong with the concept of third-wave feminism? (unless you're talking about very specific things that stem from third-wave feminism that you disagree with, which, okay, fine, but third-wave feminism is, broadly speaking, not at all a bad thing.)



agreed whole-heartedly. i'm fucking done with them. so sick of their complete disregard for nuance or understanding, their blanket vitriol. no critical thinking whatsoever.

Third-wave feminism departs from the notion that men and women should be given equal opportunities and instead looks to advance the interests of women with no regard to equality.

[Savy]

Third-wave feminism departs from the notion that men and women should be given equal opportunities and instead looks to advance the interests of women with no regard to equality.

Is this actually true? Or are you just stereotyping based on a small vocal group?

Also are these 1st/2nd/3rd wave things well defined based on anything in particular? As I'd actually be interested in looking them up if they are.

[Jack Sawyer]

It's their relationship. How is this strange or whatever? IMO they can do whatever they like.

[jackvance]

They must have nothing to talk about to even pick on something like that.

[BankItDrew]

This is incredibly funny to me because the guy in the article is the only man other than myself who I know of that has requested something other than marriage in exchange for a proposal ring.

My ex gf of 3 years and I broke up two months ago. Early on, I stated that I wanted seasons tickets to the Toronto Raptors in exchange for a ring. She thought the idea was funny but more or less agreed to it. All of her friends thought it was stupid and convinced her to change her mind.

I'm not a traditionalist. Fuck that shit.

[spoonitnow]

Feminism at this point is basically well-off white women with communications majors trying to have a career while someone else raises their kids.

[wufwugy]

I know nothing about movement feminism. I think sexism is one of the biggest problems in the US, but many (most?) feminists don't know how to address it

I'd say the same about racism and those trying to stop it. So much damage has been done by people who call themselves proponents of racial equality, but they don't see it because they just point to the even worse damage done by racists themselves, which is a red herring, and if we're ever to be a truly equal society, proponents of such need to be better than that.

[a500lbgorilla]

I don't know anything about feminism, but I know something about the spoon skool of trolling.

Third-wave feminism departs from the notion that men and women should be given equal opportunities and instead looks to advance the interests of women with no regard to equality.

Feminism at this point is basically well-off white women with communications majors trying to have a career while someone else raises their kids.

[wufwugy]

I don't read that as spoon-trolling. Those are the kinds of points I would make informally

[a500lbgorilla]

That's why he's a scholar.

[spoonitnow]

My comments about [the majority of what has come from] third-wave feminism are not trolling at all, but it's not something I wish to discuss in any amount of depth. To sum up what I think about the topic, I think third-wave feminism is bad for both men and women.

The main problem is that it ignores areas of massive inequity when men are the ones being put at a great disadvantage like prison population, suicide rate and the current state of the public school system while blinding fighting for any cause for women. It also goes completely against the idea that women should be able to choose what they want to do with their lives. If a woman wants to choose to be a traditional housewife and raise her kids, for example, then she is put down by this horse shit that has hijacked the title of feminism.

It's clear to see that this flies directly into the face of what feminism really is. Feminism is not a movement to help fight for whatever women happen to want at any given time; it's a movement to fight for reasonable equality between the sexes. By reasonable equality, I mean acknowledging the differences between the sexes and not pushing for shit like more women in the NBA.

I want to very specifically note that I am not against actual feminism. I am against bullshit being perpetuated on sites like Jezebel and with most women's studies majors that masquerades as feminism.

[wufwugy]

My comments about [the majority of what has come from] third-wave feminism are not trolling at all, but it's not something I wish to discuss in any amount of depth. To sum up what I think about the topic, I think third-wave feminism is bad for both men and women.

The main problem is that it ignores areas of massive inequity when men are the ones being put at a great disadvantage like prison population, suicide rate and the current state of the public school system while blinding fighting for any cause for women. It also goes completely against the idea that women should be able to choose what they want to do with their lives. If a woman wants to choose to be a traditional housewife and raise her kids, for example, then she is put down by this horse shit that has hijacked the title of feminism.

It's clear to see that this flies directly into the face of what feminism really is. Feminism is not a movement to help fight for whatever women happen to want at any given time; it's a movement to fight for reasonable equality between the sexes. By reasonable equality, I mean acknowledging the differences between the sexes and not pushing for shit like more women in the NBA.

I want to very specifically note that I am not against actual feminism. I am against bullshit being perpetuated on sites like Jezebel and with most women's studies majors that masquerades as feminism.

This is the description I would use. I'll have to be honest, my eyes were opened to the reality of sexism largely due to debates with Aubrey, but this is an area in which we tend to disagree but also have not explored that much. My read on it is that 3rd wave feminism believes that the status of a submissive group creates an innate perspective that isn't applicable to an oppressive group. I understand that as an experiential description, but do not think it is relevant when providing analysis

However, I feel like this feminist idea may be more of a caricature than a reality. We could be falling into the Rush Limbaugh narrative. Most feminists don't believe in gender ubiquity, and it may be that the claim that they do is a straw man

That said, I consider myself a big fucking feminist. Huge feminist. I don't give a shit about the patriarchy. I think females and femininity have so much to offer and I think they're entitled to the same principles as men and masculinity.

[spoonitnow]

I think females and femininity have so much to offer and I think they're entitled to the same principles as men and masculinity.

Pretty much this. Hopefully this is the last post I make in this thread.

[wufwugy]

What I don't understand is why men don't like women more. I mean, the majority of my closest friends have been men, but I consider that so because of culture. My earliest memory is when I was 4 and playing in the dirt with a girl. I always liked girls in school, and the people I tend to get along with the most are women. They're simply less abrasive, easier to get close to, and easier on the eyes. There's almost nothing about men that is better than women.

I honestly think that the underlying reason sexism exists is sexual tension. In the West, Christianity has made men not only fear their sexuality, but dysfunctionally experienced in it. The dysfunction provokes a cult of puritanical misogyny ("how dare she dress like that?!"), and we all suffer because of it.

Personally, I have found that ripping the claws of sexual prejudice from my life has made me a happier person. My background is of the True Protestant, those who were better than the fake Protestants, and the sexual dysfunction is unexplainable. But it appears that after the long struggle of trying to stop judging people for what they choose for themselves, I have finally been able to live less hatefully

[rong]

Yeah. I tend to fuck a lot of my female friends, then we end up not being close friends any more. Then we drift apart. That doesn't happen with my male friends.

[Jack Sawyer]

Yeah. I tend to fuck a lot of my female friends, then we end up not being close friends any more. Then we drift apart. That doesn't happen with my male friends.

Protip: don't fuck your female friends


This post cost a lot to write without any grammatical errors

[wufwugy]

Protip: don't fuck your female friends


This post cost a lot to write without any grammatical errors

was the first post

Brotip; dont fuck you're female frends?

[aubreymcfate]

My comments about [the majority of what has come from] third-wave feminism are not trolling at all, but it's not something I wish to discuss in any amount of depth. To sum up what I think about the topic, I think third-wave feminism is bad for both men and women.

The main problem is that it ignores areas of massive inequity when men are the ones being put at a great disadvantage like prison population, suicide rate and the current state of the public school system while blinding fighting for any cause for women. It also goes completely against the idea that women should be able to choose what they want to do with their lives. If a woman wants to choose to be a traditional housewife and raise her kids, for example, then she is put down by this horse shit that has hijacked the title of feminism.

It's clear to see that this flies directly into the face of what feminism really is. Feminism is not a movement to help fight for whatever women happen to want at any given time; it's a movement to fight for reasonable equality between the sexes. By reasonable equality, I mean acknowledging the differences between the sexes and not pushing for shit like more women in the NBA.

I want to very specifically note that I am not against actual feminism. I am against bullshit being perpetuated on sites like Jezebel and with most women's studies majors that masquerades as feminism.

meh, ok. i mean i have a few bones to pick with stuff you've said (not just in this post) but honestly overall i agree with you, so it's cool. also i didn't mean to insult you earlier, i can just tell our opinions are super different with some stuff and i honestly don't have the best temperament for disagreement, so if anything i was insulting myself. :P

[aubreymcfate]

I think females and femininity have so much to offer and I think they're entitled to the same principles as men and masculinity.

agreed, but also:

not all women are feminine or identify as feminine. feminism is not just about femininity. femininity is a part of it since it's so reviled in our culture, but femininity is not exclusive to women by any means, nor is masculinity exclusive to men.

[aubreymcfate]

oh and just to add, spoon, there are many modern feminists who raise HELL for the type of woman that gives another woman shit for choosing a more traditional lifestyle. we hate that shit, lol. choice motherfuckers. no one wants femifascism.

[kingnat]

Yeah. I tend to fuck a lot of my female friends, then we end up not being close friends any more. Then we drift apart. That doesn't happen with my male friends.

Start fucking your male friends... I'm guessing the end result of fucking female friends will be the same.

[abelardx]

Publix subs are the best.

[chemist]

I had a ham, cheese and chicken sandwich today.

Was it 300 sandwiches or 300 different types of sandwich?
Either way it doesn't sound too difficult.
And a totally pointless deal to make.

[rong]

2 x 4 ingredient sandwich = 1 blow job.

lol I'd start making them myself.