Warning and account temp suspended

[Cobra_1878]

OK, so I play with one of my mates online a lot and we play both tournaments and cash games.

I received an e-mail from Stars this morning asking for my relationship with my mate and to review a couple of hands and explain my thinking/strategy behind it.

They are reviewing my account and I'm currently suspended. The two hands they sent me were ridiculously straight forward to explain.

If they're reviewing my account they will see that we have been playing together a long time and we have taken a lot of money off each other/ knocked each other out of tournaments as well.

I'm just wondering if I have done something wrong by doing this? I am sure other people play online together (?) so I'm assuming somebody has reported us for playing in the same tournaments/cash games a lot?

Any advice with how to proceed?

[Keith]

look at it from every other stars players point of view. If you see two people always sat on the same tables and you find out that they are mates , wouldn't you be concerned that there was a possibility that they were colluding.Post the hand histories that they are concerned about but i'm guessing that someone has reported you when they've possibly thought you soft playing each other or stars has some software running that looks for people disproportionately playing with each other compared with other people logged in at the same time.
JUst be honest and straightforward with stars and answer their questions. From lots of threads on 2+2 that seems to be the only way to go.If they find that you are lying to them ,its reasonable that they'll just think everything else that you tell them is a lie.No idea if they can make it so that if they do restore your account, so that you can't play on the same cash tables and tournaments you could only play final tables together.

and don't open a 2+2 thread about it unless you want a shitstorm to kick off

[The Bean Counter]

You need to stop doing this immediately with cash games. The Stars software is sophisitcated enough to pick up on these things and is one of the reasons why it is so well respected (and you really don't want to get banned from the biggest and best on the market). If you enjoy playing each other then you should do this via the Stars Home Games option.

I looked into the mtt thing a while back when round a mates house and we were grinding tournaments together on the same internet connection. I gather that isn't a problem if it is a big tournament as the chances of you being on the same table are slim (1000+ entrants I guess) but again, you are going to run into problems if a smaller field.

[abelardx]

Definitely answer all questions honestly and do whatever they say. Good luck.

[Cobra_1878]

I will have a look at that Home Games tab if they allow me back on. I'm not a fan of HU which is the reason we joined 6-max tables.

I have answered everything honestly so far as I know I have done nothing wrong, I just hope that they see it that way as well.

I understand what you're saying as well Keith, I would probably be the same if I saw the same 2 names all the time playing the same tables.

Why would there be a shitstorm on 2+2 btw?

[eugmac]

just tell them that you were being bumhunted

[TeUnit]

its nice to so see that stars is interested in keeping the games clean

sure your account will be fine if you did nothing wrong

[Keith]

cos virtually every thread that starts off......my aaccount has been suspended/locked ends up with OP admitting that they did all sorts of stuff from multiaccounting,colluding,soft playing,sharing holecards etc and as such nobody believes the OP is innocent.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...rozen-1380676/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-help-1379642/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...email-1378516/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...nting-1378950/

[Pascal]

no one ever believes OP is innocent because OP is never innocent

if you play together regularly Cobra it's probably just a precautionary check, so long as youve never chip dumped or soft played you'll be fine. posting the HHs would be helpful

[Cobra_1878]

Hand 1

PokerStars Hand #103791434396: Tournament #784914186, $3.13+$0.37
Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2013/09/07 12:08:47 ET
Table '784914186 2' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: Cobra_1878 (3310 in chips)
Seat 3: LEE LINES (1520 in chips)
Seat 5: JonBonJoveno (1785 in chips)
Seat 6: RayZMax (2385 in chips)
JonBonJoveno: posts small blind 50
RayZMax: posts big blind 100
12:08:47 *** HOLE CARDS ***
12:08:47 Dealt to Cobra_1878 [Ad 9h]
12:08:51 Cobra_1878: raises 100 to 200
12:08:55 LEE LINES: calls 200
12:08:55 JonBonJoveno: folds
12:09:13 Regular time for player RayZMax has expired, TIME BANK
has been activated
12:09:17 RayZMax: folds
12:09:17 Moving Bets to Pot
12:09:17 *** FLOP *** [7c 9s 8s]
12:09:21 Cobra_1878: bets 350
12:09:23 LEE LINES: raises 970 to 1320 and is all-in
12:09:41 Regular time for player Cobra_1878 has expired, TIME
BANK has been activated
12:09:57 Cobra_1878: folds
12:09:57 Moving Bets to Pot
12:09:57 Uncalled bet (970) returned to LEE LINES
12:09:58 LEE LINES collected 1250 from pot
12:09:59 LEE LINES: doesn't show hand

My response for this hand;

Hand 1

I have top pair, top kicker. That's it. I know this player very well, he doesn't go all-in a whole lot unless he has something good. He can have a straight from either 65 or JT, he could have two pair or a set, he could have a huge flush draw, there are so many hands that beat me. I am also chip leader for the table, why would I want to lose half my chips on a marginal hand?

Hand 2

PokerStars Hand #102986549237: Tournament #776705315, $3.13+$0.37
Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2013/08/20 6:05:58 ET
Table '776705315 1' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Cobra_1878 (1200 in chips)
Seat 2: jpvribeiro (1635 in chips)
Seat 3: LEE LINES (700 in chips)
Seat 4: ElNickolo (1570 in chips)
Seat 5: AAsanek72 (1455 in chips)
Seat 6: Niller0110 (2440 in chips)
jpvribeiro: posts small blind 15
LEE LINES: posts big blind 30
06:05:58 *** HOLE CARDS ***
06:05:58 Dealt to Cobra_1878 [Tc Kh]
06:06:00 ElNickolo: calls 30
06:06:04 AAsanek72: folds
06:06:04 Niller0110: folds
06:06:08 Cobra_1878: calls 30
06:06:10 jpvribeiro: calls 15
06:06:17 LEE LINES: checks
06:06:17 Moving Bets to Pot
06:06:17 *** FLOP *** [Th Qd 7d]
06:06:20 jpvribeiro: bets 30
06:06:29 LEE LINES: calls 30
06:06:30 ElNickolo: calls 30
06:06:32 Cobra_1878: calls 30
06:06:32 Moving Bets to Pot
06:06:32 *** TURN *** [Th Qd 7d] [Kd]
06:06:34 jpvribeiro: checks
06:06:38 LEE LINES: bets 120
06:06:39 ElNickolo: folds
06:06:41 Cobra_1878: calls 120
06:06:41 jpvribeiro: folds
06:06:41 Moving Bets to Pot
06:06:41 *** RIVER *** [Th Qd 7d Kd] [4s]
06:06:44 LEE LINES: checks
06:06:51 Cobra_1878: checks
06:06:51 *** SHOW DOWN ***
06:06:51 LEE LINES: shows [9s Js] (a straight, Nine to King)
06:06:51 Cobra_1878: mucks hand
06:06:52 LEE LINES collected 480 from pot

My response for this hand;

I have two pair on a 3 to a straight and 3 to a flush board. Let's say I bet the river, what hands do I get value from? What happens if he raises me? I have to fold. If he bets the river, and it's not a huge bet, I have to call. Otherwise, my hand has good showdown value on a scary board so I'm going to check behind.

I don't understand why they sent me this hand at all. If anything, it looks more suspicious from my mates point of view.

Those are the two hands.

I told them that I have PT4 and I can show them plenty of hands, where we have knocked each other out of tournaments/took each others stacks, if they want me too.

[Pascal]

yeah both look fine to me

[abelardx]

You might want to rephrase your thoughts as statements rather than questions to sound a little less snarky eg 'I am chip leader at the table and don't want to risk half my stack in a marginal spot' rather than 'Why would I ...'

[Cobra_1878]

You might want to rephrase your thoughts as statements rather than questions to sound a little less snarky eg 'I am chip leader at the table and don't want to risk half my stack in a marginal spot' rather than 'Why would I ...'

Yeah I thought about that afterwards. I read the e-mail they sent me and immediately replied so I wasn't in the best mood as I was writing it. Should have taken some time to just calm down and think what I wanted to write.

[abelardx]

It's a minor thing. I wouldn't worry about it. Just remember they're not your enemy.

[d0zer]

fwiw, I've been accused of colluding (chip-dumping) by a much smaller site than stars. They sent me a list of players I was colluding with, then I went over every major pot I played with them and offered up explanations why this isn't chip dumping (like hey we got the money in on the flop and it was a fucking coinflip). I also made tons of passive-aggressive jabs at the monkeys that decided that this was a legit chip-dumping case and suggested they rework their "obviously flawed" process for determining these things.

I got my account back. YMMV etc

[Keith]

no one ever believes OP is innocent because OP is never innocent

if you play together regularly Cobra it's probably just a precautionary check, so long as youve never chip dumped or soft played you'll be fine. posting the HHs would be helpful

the plot thickens







didn't you think it would be dodgy as hell for you and your mate to play a lot of 6max SNG's together and that you soft playing each other could be used to your advantage.You also didn't mention that one was a 6max SNG because saying tourneys everyone thinks that you were talking about MTTs .

Also don't rely on knocking each other out as a defence in this situation because it could be used as part of team playing to build a big stack and then bully the rest of the small field and make a cash/win more likely.

[Cobra_1878]

the plot thickens







didn't you think it would be dodgy as hell for you and your mate to play a lot of 6max SNG's together and that you soft playing each other could be used to your advantage.You also didn't mention that one was a 6max SNG because saying tourneys everyone thinks that you were talking about MTTs .

Also don't rely on knocking each other out as a defence in this situation because it could be used as part of team playing to build a big stack and then bully the rest of the small field and make a cash/win more likely.

No, if I thought it was dodgy as hell I wouldn't have done it. I didn't pay attention to where the hands come from either, I thought it was strange they were tournament hands as I don't really play tournaments a lot, I mostly play cash. So at least that part makes sense now.

What about when I show them we have taken stacks off each other in cash games?

[d0zer]

If stars wants to prevent this thing from happening, they should really have some automated mechanism to stop it.

"You have played with userX in the maximum(Y) allowable # of games together, you are unable to join this table/tournament etc. Please play home games if you want to play together".

As it stands there's no way for them to prove or for you to disprove that you two weren't sharing info, giving each other slight edges, and these manual witch hunts are bad for everyone involved.

[abelardx]

My brother plays with his friends all the time. Lots of people do. It's a social thing. Just avoid the same tournaments/tables. You can still get together and laugh at the beats and tell each other fish stories. I wouldn't worry about it Cobra. You were undoubtedly thrown up by an algorithm and Stars is good at security so they're checking it out. You're playing $3.50 sng's for gosh sake. Say 'don't ban me', 'no foul intended', 'we'll follow any suggestions you make', and no problem.

[d0zer]

My brother plays with his friends all the time. Lots of people do. It's a social thing. Just avoid the same tournaments/tables.

I used to play with friends often on the same tournaments/tables. I'm guessing stars collusion detection has become more aggressive since...~2009

[abelardx]

I don't know if they avoided the same tournaments, probably not, but that was before BF and they're all donkeys anyway. (I hope he doesn't see this.)

edit: They did play higher stakes though. Probably Stars is a lot more paranoid in general. It's like those VPN threads on 2p2. Imagine some idiot in the States getting on Stars and the DOJ nazis deciding to swoop in and confiscate everything. I'm sure Stars is scared to death of the DOJ despite all their good will moves in taking over Full Tilt.

[The Bean Counter]

It looks like you've both been naive, but the two hands shouldn't cause you much of a problem.Would definitely go down the apologetic and it won't happen again route.

[Keith]

the chinese and russians abused the hell out of team playing and probably caused stars to actively detect it. The chinese got restricted to 1 per table at one stage. http://www.sharkscopers.com/blog/rak...yers-one-table

what % of the 6man and 12 man SNGs did you play together, how many different days and and how many 6/12 man SNGs in total.

[Cobra_1878]

the chinese and russians abused the hell out of team playing and probably caused stars to actively detect it. The chinese got restricted to 1 per table at one stage. http://www.sharkscopers.com/blog/rak...yers-one-table

what % of the 6man and 12 man SNGs did you play together, how many different days and and how many 6/12 man SNGs in total.

We only really played on a Tuesday but it was a full day session (this was before I was back at Uni though). We would play S&Gs pretty much all day unless one/or both of us were doing shit then we would play cash. We MIGHT play for another couple of hours one night a week depending on if he had the time.

I played pretty much every night. If I'm not busy in Uni I would play for 3-4 hours through the day as well. I would 100% say I play more poker without my mate than with him.

In a typical week, while I am at Uni, I would say I play around 28-30 hours a week. Out of those hours, I will be playing with my mate for about 4-7 of those hours, at a push.

I am sure my PT is not giving me the correct stats here but I am going to post what it's showing me. I have played a total of 82 6 or 12 man S&Gs, of those 82 I have played 24 with my mate. I feel like we have played way more than 24 so I'm not sure what's going on there. I also rarely play S&Gs by myself as I prefer cash so I'm surprised to see I have played 58 by myself.

[Keith]

reason i asked was because when i looked it up on pokerprolabs , the last 10 SNGs that you played every one of them was with your mate across 4 or 5 seperate days. To stars this must look like that you are arranging to play in particular SNGs and they have to question whether if you are in contact to arrange which SNGs to register to are you still in contact during the SNGs.
Chat logs for whichever contact method you have been using may help clear you if they show that you were "talking about real life stuff" during the SNGs and not sharing hole card info or discussing the other players play.

[OngBonga]

I can see why they might be suspicious of the KT vs J9 hand. You both have big hands on the turn and yet there's no river action now it's just the two of you. His check is dodgy, he led the turn with 2nd nuts and got called, yet doesn't lead a brick river? And after he checks, you don't think that maybe your top two is good and that there might be value against his range?

I don't understand why they sent you the A9 one, it's natural for you to have a solid enough read on your friend to decide if tptk is no good here.

[griffey24]

I can see why they might be suspicious of the KT vs J9 hand. You both have big hands on the turn and yet there's no river action now it's just the two of you. His check is dodgy, he led the turn with 2nd nuts and got called, yet doesn't lead a brick river? And after he checks, you don't think that maybe your top two is good and that there might be value against his range?

I don't understand why they sent you the A9 one, it's natural for you to have a solid enough read on your friend to decide if tptk is no good here.

I don't agree about the J9 vs KT hand. The flop went FOUR-way, on a two tone board. The turn brought the flush and the straight bet and got called. There's a very high probability than any call on the turn will be a flush, no way he can get a second street of value on the river and there's def no value in the KT betting the river.

[OngBonga]

I missed the flush completing, I thought J9 was 2nd nuts.

I still think I bet top two there after river is checked. I expect a straight and probably a set to b/f river more often than c/c.

But yeah based on the flush being there it's not as dodgy as I first thought. My apologies.

[Cobra_1878]

OK, so Stars come to the conclusion that we were working as a team BUT have allowed us both to continue playing as long as we don't play together.

I am seriously pissed off. If they thought we were guilty they should have banned us, not give some shitty warning about not playing together. I am in the middle of sending them a real shitty e-mail.

What a load of shit.

[Savy]

Sounds like you're trying your best to get banned. Think of it from their point of view, they have to stop people doing what you're doing because it can lead to really bad cheating and ruins the integrity of the site. What they have done sounds pretty fair to me.

[Keith]

what savvy said. they probably can't prove that you were definately cheating ,but can't say you are innocent either. just clarify with them what not playing together means? can you enter the same mtts is they are over a certain number of players, will the client prevent you from accidently entering the same tournaments /cash tables etc.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I am in the middle of sending them a real shitty e-mail.

Bad move. NEVER EMAIL ANGRY.

If you type an angry email, save the draft and sit on it until you're not angry anymore. Then re-read your draft and change anything that you would be offended by if it was sent to you.

I can't stress this enough. It's been a HARD lesson for me to learn. I've lost multiple jobs over emails. Bottom line is that tone doesn't transfer over text and you are in a business relationship.

A business relationship!!

As in: Your mood is irrelevant. It's just business.

Wait until you've calmed down. Write the letter, but put yourself in the position of the person receiving it, and what they're capable of doing. Try to remember the audience every time you write... it's the key to effective communication.

[bikes]

I used to play with friends often on the same tournaments/tables. I'm guessing stars collusion detection has become more aggressive since...~2009

if only stars had reviewed the great plays i made against you

[d0zer]

if only stars had reviewed the great plays i made against you

we woulda been accused of chip dumping a thousand times, and our only defense woulda been "uhhh meta yo"