Anti-Capitalist Sentiment (with some morality)

[Renton]

Haven't you been reading wuf's posts about capitalism with welfareism vs socialism/communism? It's not communism just because the government funds healthcare and education because the means of production, and the relevant dependent manufacturing are still under a capitalist system.

But they're not. The government isn't just subsidizing these systems, it's telling the providers of these services exactly how they should do their work, and forcing its subjective and often arbitrary morality onto them.

And the means of production and manufacturing aren't under a capitalist system at all. Now sure, everything at a school isn't made by a government controlled entity from a government school bus to a government pencil. But the way in which these jobs are distributed is often corrupt or nepotistic with few incentives to cut costs.

(warning: anecdote)

When I landed my first architecture job, it was for a firm in Atlanta that had a contract with the FAA to do design work for the airport. How we landed this contract I'm not 100% sure, I'm assuming it's because the principal of our firm was a big guy in the Atlanta community and well respected. It was very lucrative work.

During July every year we would participate in this project where we would physically go to the airport and do all these surveys, using a click-counter to count how many people go through different entrances, corridors, security checkpoints etc. Everyone who worked at the firm was invited to do this work, it required absolutely no skill. I did a couple of shifts with my boss, my hourly rate was 16 dollars, his was like 60 dollars, and we were billed out to the FAA at 4 times that much. So basically they were paying 240 dollars an hour for my boss to count cars driving into the economy parking lot at 5am.

So this is an anecdote of how government "capitalistically" allocates its resources. A private airport administration entity would have hired college kids to do its surveys and paid them with beer. The FAA has very little incentive to cut its costs, and every incentive to distribute massive amounts of tax dollars to whatever winners it chooses.

[d0zer]

But they're not. The government isn't just subsidizing these systems, it's telling the providers of these services exactly how they should do their work, and forcing its subjective and often arbitrary morality onto them.

Large clients have a lot of sway over providers regardless of whether they're government or private. Wall-mart has sway over its providers and they have to bend over backwards because it's in their best interest to. I don't see how that is even coming close to approaching communism. The communism rhetoric really does just seem like libertarian hyperbole for "the government is controlling something".

[sah_24]

The government not only telling me I have to buy a product but the exact product I have to buy is not socialism/communism you have to be fucking kidding me right ? How did you kids graduate high school ?

[Renton]

The communism rhetoric really does just seem like libertarian hyperbole for "the government is controlling something".

OK you're right. When the government coerces insurance companies into charging obscenely unprofitable rates to its customers, that's not communism yet, its socialism. When said insurance companies go bankrupt because of this and the government bails them out and owns them, then that will be communism.

Similarly when the government sets price controls on interest rates and the housing markets bubble and crash because of this, and the government is forced to bail out and outright buy Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, it goes from socialism to communism again.

So yeah I guess it is hyperbolic but the point here is that it all starts with price controls. Or unreasonable regulations that in effect act as price controls. Socialism or communism, these are the root problems.

[d0zer]

OK you're right. When the government coerces insurance companies into charging obscenely unprofitable rates to its customers, that's not communism yet, its socialism. When said insurance companies go bankrupt because of this and the government bails them out and owns them, then that will be communism.

Similarly when the government sets price controls on interest rates and the housing markets bubble and crash because of this, and the government is forced to bail out and outright buy Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, it goes from socialism to communism again.

So yeah I guess it is hyperbolic but the point here is that it all starts with price controls. Or unreasonable regulations that in effect act as price controls. Socialism or communism, these are the root problems.

I feel like this is becoming too focused on obamacare, which may indeed be a mess, but the whole American health care system seems to be a bit of a mess to begin with. I was initially responding to your comment about western countries moving towards controlling economies with regards to healthcare or education.

Let's look at the Canadian health care system as an example of something often called "Socialist":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_...nada#Economics

Basically the government acts as an insurance provider for private doctors and funds independent hospitals. The insurance provider part would be considered socialist, but so would the American military. Doctors are still free to purchase supplies from private medical suppliers, Patients are still free to choose their doctors. All of that is under free market capitalism so when you say "The government controls 35% of the economy", including health care, you make it sounds like they're controlling every aspect of Healthcare, when they're not. It's a mixed system that has aspects of socialism and aspects of capitalism. Competition is still allowed to thrive, albeit in a more limited way than it was in America, as the government has replaced insurance providers. But was the American free-market alternative, HMOs pre-obamacare really a shining example of capitalism?

[Renton]

[video=youtube;ON5SxrCjbCU]All of that is under free market capitalism so when you say "The government controls 35% of the economy", including health care, you make it sounds like they're controlling every aspect of Healthcare, when they're not. It's a mixed system that has aspects of socialism and aspects of capitalism. Competition is still allowed to thrive, albeit in a more limited way than it was in America, as the government has replaced insurance providers. But was the American free-market alternative, HMOs pre-obamacare really a shining example of capitalism?

The American and Canadian governments both spend almost 45% as much as their GDPs. Not in capitalistic ways, more like in ways I described in my FAA anecdote. The US federal (30) and state (10) governments own over 40% of all the land in the U.S. including as much as 95% in western states like Nevada. In light of these facts how is it hyperbolic to state that that countries like the U.S. and Canada control over 1/3 of their economies? I think it's an understatement. They spend over 1/3 of it based on the whims of a congress that anyone on either side of the aisle would admit is as corrupt and incompetent as any congress in American history. And this isn't even to mention all the absurd and destructive price controls they impose on on all aspects of the economy.