5NLZ - JTs fd & turned 2nd pair

[Savy]

Stacks:
UTG Player4 ($7.36) 147bb
UTG+1 Hero ($5) 100bb
CO Player6 ($7.63) 153bb
BTN Player1 ($6.81) 136bb
SB Player2 ($5.02) 100bb
BB Player3 ($9.93) 199bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1 10 J
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Player1 calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: Q 6 7 ($0.37, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, Player1 calls $0.25

Turn: 10 ($0.87, 2 players)
Hero checks, Player1 bets $0.62, Hero folds

Assuming unknown
Flop c-bet standard?
Turn are we c-betting again after picking up showdown value? If so why?

Villain was 0/0 after like 17 hands or so, what's the plan of action for the hand?

[ajspiano]

Flop c-bet standard?

I would think so, I don't know that I'd open 10Js from that EP like that at loooww stakes like this (i'm not looking to balance my range out that much because by default I don't think anyone is paying attention and its going to put me in some awkward spots)

...but then I don't 6max at all, and I assume that makes a huge difference here. If you do open, not cbetting that board would be pretty spew i think, you have too much going for you.

Turn are we c-betting again after picking up showdown value? If so why?

Other flush draws and straight draws call this flop? Bet/fold seems much better than check/call here (as in hypothetically, had villains turn bet been smaller). Villain can float you on the flop but probably can't call a 2nd barrel here.

If I bet and get called on the turn, I'm probably not looking to stack off if I do catch the flush so maybe check/call river because better flushes would be in villains range. 89s has made a straight already so I'm looking to showdown cheap whatever, since that is certainly in a BTN preflop and flop calling range I think.

Also think that if you check/call a turn here you can't shove a diamond river and expect to get paid, you probably even fold out a fair few hands with a more modest value bet so you don't have any decent implied odds. Your best option is probably check/call or check/raise rivers if you catch a flush.. But I don't really like raising rivers for the above mentioned reason.

Also, I'm not good at poker. (just so you're aware)

[jyms]

Also, I'm not good at poker. (just so you're aware)

This is one of the best ways to change that. Post before the stronger players do. Find out if your thinking is right or wrong without influence of other posts. I have had several leaks solved that I never knew I had when posting opinions of hands before others.

[Razvan729]

Standard cbet. B/f turn for .55 facing QT/TT/66/77/89 vs turn raise. c/f brick river. c/decide diamond/T/J river.

[ajspiano]

Find out if your thinking is right or wrong without influence of other posts.

Standard cbet. B/f turn for .55 facing QT/TT/66/77/89 vs turn raise. c/f brick river. c/decide diamond/T/J river.

So that is pretty much what I meant in a far more concise and helpful manner. Will take that as a good sign and try to be more direct next time.

[Renton]

Turn is a very easy check/call. It would maybe be a check call even without the flush draw. Pretty much basic poker 101 is that pair+flush draw is unfoldable on the turn to all but the largest of overbets.


Flop cbet is standard. Betting the turn is plus ev but probably a rather large mistake compared with check/call.

[ajspiano]

Betting the turn is plus ev but probably a rather large mistake compared with check/call.

can you elaborate on why?

[STILL_mkd]

I think that you didn't have to raise the flop, because you didn't have any pair or possibility to make a flush or straight, so for opinion it would be better to check the flop.

[griffey24]

Turn is a nut c/c spot for sure. Our hand is too strong to c/f, but not strong enough to bet for value. There also not much point semi bluffing with it, since we now have a pair and betting lets worse hands fold.

It's also great for our turn c/c range to c/c this type of hand because it allows us to have flushes on diamond rivers in a spot most ppl wouldn't expect it.

Worst case scenario you have 9 outs vs a turned straight, 15 outs for Qx and are ahead of many hands vs villains that bet their entire range here facing a check (6x, 7x, 88,99, 9T etc).

[Tom1559]

Not sure I would have raised from that position with QJs but after you did and got one call then c betting the flop is pretty standard and nothing wrong with than. I think I would also have bet the turn if no other reason just to find out where I stood. The bet from the villian has put you into a difficult position. Give the villians previous inactivity it looks to me like you are beat and with your only chance being to hit the flush. Even then you may still be behind. I would fold to the turn bet.

[griffey24]

Not sure I would have raised from that position with QJs but after you did and got one call then c betting the flop is pretty standard and nothing wrong with than. I think I would also have bet the turn if no other reason just to find out where I stood. The bet from the villian has put you into a difficult position. Give the villians previous inactivity it looks to me like you are beat and with your only chance being to hit the flush. Even then you may still be behind. I would fold to the turn bet.

NEVER bet to 'find out where you're at'. That is probably one of the worst and yet most common reasons beginner players make bets/raises etc.

[ajspiano]

Not sure I would have raised from that position with QJs but after you did and got one call then c betting the flop is pretty standard and nothing wrong with than. I think I would also have bet the turn if no other reason just to find out where I stood. The bet from the villian has put you into a difficult position. Give the villians previous inactivity it looks to me like you are beat and with your only chance being to hit the flush. Even then you may still be behind. I would fold to the turn bet.

Adding to what griffey said, this villain can float this flop with quite a few potential draws. Given we are out of position, and checked the turn this is a fairly decent spot for villain to semibluff his draws with plenty of outs in the bag, and position to aid his river decision.

So I think what grifey/renton are saying I guess is that our pair here is a lot of the time good at showdown, and there's a decent number of rivers that villain is probably going to check behind his Qx hands, so we probably don't have to pay anymore to get to showdown.

Without doing the math I think this means given our flush outs we don't have to be ahead a very big percentage of the time to call the turn bet. Especially since we stand a decent chance of extracting some more money on the river when we catch the flush.

[Renton]

can you elaborate on why?

Because it needlessly narrows the opponents range to hands with stronger showdown value than JT, yet never folds out a stronger hand that JT.

In a way, betting degrades the value of our hand to something like 65 of diamonds. Worse still, at least with 65 of diamonds we'd be more sure that our hand was good when we river trips or two pair. Bet 65 of diamonds, and check call this hand.