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NL10 Calling 3bet oop with AKs

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  1. #1
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Is it better to 4bet this hand preflop? I have only a few villain hands.
    You have 188 hands on Villain, and all those pretty colorful numbers and you can't congeal it into any read at all on Villain?

    Honest, serious questions:
    Why do you use the numbers?
    What do they gain you?
    I'm not asking about people, in general. I'm asking about you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    What's your std play in this typical spot preflop when you don't have info?
    I haven't found myself in a preflop spot without info since I was 8 years old.

    Does your Villain play poker? NLHE? Yes? Where is he playing?
    What does that tell you?
    Bang! There's a read.

    Does your Villain have chips? Yes? How many?
    What does that tell you?
    Bang! There's another.

    I never even saw him dealt one card and already I have two solid pieces of information that can lead me to generalized reads. I will adjust as necessary.

    I refuse to start at 0. I refuse to let any aspiring poker player say they have "no info" on Villain and get away with it. I (perhaps over-zealously) see it as laziness, but I accept that it is more a knee-jerk reaction to not knowing where to start.

    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Is it better to 4bet this hand preflop? I have only a few villain hands.
    What's your std play in this typical spot preflop when you don't have info?
    There is no way to answer if it's better to 4-bet PRE w/o any context at all. I am not trying to be harsh. I just want to clear the air of the notion that there is a "correct" play in poker. Unless you can see Villain's cards, there is no unquestionably correct play.

    That said, I generally treat AKs like KK+ PRE. If you get called by { JJ-, AKo } often enough, it easily justifies the times you run into KK+. ALSO, you'll be more likely to be called when you have KK+ if Villains know you will go full aggro PRE with AKs.

    However, if you have a strong read that - if you raise, then it allows Villain to play perfectly against you - then you must NOT raise.

    Again. There is no 'standard' play. If you treat the game of poker as though you only need to learn a set of rules and you will win, then you will not win. Maybe you can crush the micros with that method, but eventually you will face creative and intelligent Villains who will see right through your 'standard routine.'

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    as played postflop....what do you suggest??
    OTF: I'm happy to get it in. I think a x/r is a fine play, but I don't mind donking into the pre-flop raiser, either. I would estimate which has a more likely chance to get more of Villain's chips into the pot and make that play.

    OTT or OTR: If villain continued past the flop then the runout smacks the low portion of his range. Straights get there, flushes get there, lots of 2-pair combos that will continue OTF get there. Even taking into account Villain's 3-bet from HJ PRE, which significantly reduces, if not eliminates, that low part of this range... even then... his continued aggression is saying he has a strong hand. What on that board is strong? You have TPTK... are you hoping for a chopped pot? Is any sensible Villain doing this with QQ-?

    I mean... if you honestly had no reads, then assuming sensibility in Villains until you see otherwise is the safest course of action.

    I'm done with TPTK against a strong line and almost always folding OTR.

    All of this assumes a competent player on whom I have no fishy reads as pertains to over-valuing hands or running big bluffs OTR when he misses draws.
  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You have 188 hands on Villain, and all those pretty colorful numbers and you can't congeal it into any read at all on Villain?

    Honest, serious questions:
    Why do you use the numbers?
    What do they gain you?
    I'm not asking about people, in general. I'm asking about you.
    No. To be honest, i can't congeal any read with these numbers. That's why i'm asking!
    I see he has a 3bet of 4 in 188 hands..... reliable? Don't think so.
    Does he have a 3bet bluffing range against EP with these data? I Don't know.
    So far i have ZERO info about his fold to 4bet.
    I have no data of his 3bet pot playing tendencies.


    BUT that's what i can look for in my very limited experience in NL10! I thought that if i'm missing something in my colorful numbers, someone with more experience could give me some extra imput.
    This is what a see at the table. What am i missing here?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Does your Villain have chips? Yes? How many?
    What does that tell you?
    Bang! There's another.

    I never even saw him dealt one card and already I have two solid pieces of information that can lead me to generalized reads. I will adjust as necessary.

    I refuse to start at 0. I refuse to let any aspiring poker player say they have "no info" on Villain and get away with it. I (perhaps over-zealously) see it as laziness, but I accept that it is more a knee-jerk reaction to not knowing where to start.

    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.
    So...that's your info?
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    There is no way to answer if it's better to 4-bet PRE w/o any context at all.
    Next time i should say that i have no CONTEXT instead of no info.

    Please, i'm a begginer in NL10, if you are not gonna be helpful, i would appreciate to show your lack of sex somewhere else.

    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFerguson91 View Post
    With AKs I would sometimes 4 bet and sometimes call a 3 bet, or even sometimes call an open raise with it just to mix up the play a little. I've learnt not to over value AK as it has gotten me into trouble so many times before. Preflop you played absolutely fine here. I'd be a little wary of the 3bet though as they can usually represent hands like AA and KK.

    Post flop I would have led out with a cbet instead of checking because of the flush draw that is there and it would also have given villain an opportunity to fold or to raise over the top of you which would let you know that you were probably beaten and you could have found it easier to throw the hand away not having invested so much of your stack in the pot. River for me is a fold here as well but a hard one tbh. I'd be annoyed folding it but would have to convince myself I was definately beat.
    Thanks!!! I would never have thoght of leading out. I think that i'm afraid of that tendency of raising every donk bet, but i don't know if that applies in 3bet pots.
    Thanks again and sorry for my english!
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    No. To be honest, i can't congeal any read with these numbers. That's why i'm asking!
    I see he has a 3bet of 4 in 188 hands..... reliable? Don't think so.
    Does he have a 3bet bluffing range against EP with these data? I Don't know.
    So far i have ZERO info about his fold to 4bet.
    I have no data of his 3bet pot playing tendencies.
    I think you are completely missing the point that MMM was making in his post and specifically about the "honest" questions.
    In order to use the numbers in your HUD you have to understand them , how they are calculated , what they represent and how you can use them to exploit an opponents weaknesses. Look at his vpip/pfr 13 10 this guy is a standard unthinking nit tag zombie probably playing 12+ tables of full ring. HIs 3bet is 4% which reinforces his nit tag zombie image and he may have got a disproportionate number of premium cards but you can be pretty confident that this guy is 3betting QQ+ AK+ with no 3bet bluffs since he's playing too many tables to actually get creative , his ranges are pretty static and he plays like an automaton.
    If you 4 bet him you likely face a continuing range of QQ+ which has you crushed 2:1 so you are more likely to be winning small pots and losing big pots. It will be worth you doing some EV calculations to get an understanding of the best move against different sorts of players .

    BUT that's what i can look for in my very limited experience in NL10! I thought that if i'm missing something in my colorful numbers, someone with more experience could give me some extra imput.
    This is what a see at the table. What am i missing here?
    WHat you are missing is understanding what the numbers on your HUD mean and how to use them to exploit your opponents and how to take population averages and use them to fill in some missing information. i.e nits typical ranges and after a few hands someone is shaping up to be a nit then you can infer his 3bet ranges and 4bet ranges , how he reacts to steals etc from your past experience of how the population reacts at that stake.
    Please, i'm a begginer in NL10, if you are not gonna be helpful, i would appreciate to show your lack of sex somewhere else.

    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.
    It will help all people who are learning not to get arsey with people who reply to their questions. MMM was actually being really helpfull with his answers to your questions, unfortunately you are not yet a good enough player to appeciate the info that he was giving you .If you don't understand replies , ask further questions about stuff you don't understand so that they can be clarified rather than taking offence or being antagonistic to people who reply to help you.
    Thanks!!! I would never have thoght of leading out. I think that i'm afraid of that tendency of raising every donk bet, but i don't know if that applies in 3bet pots.
    Thanks again and sorry for my english!
    As for leading out , meh I think you'll get into trouble against a nit tags range and allow him to play perfectly against you . I think several major factors that have been missed here is what hero's image is , I.e whats your vpip PFR running like and how much of a beginner are you ? is he likelyt o see you showing down rubbish, are you a lag or tag as they will all affect the villains range. If you are a nit /tag then his 3bet range vs you and your position is probably QQ+ at its loosest , if you are a lagg then he could be at the 4% end of his range with TT+AQ+

    as for your pretty HUD write down for each stat what it means and how you use it during a hand to influence your decision making . If you don't understand a stat and /or don't use it ...why have it on your HUD at all.

    You may think i'm being harsh , but i have both HEM and PT4 and have played this year on sites that don't allow a HUD to be used. Currently taken a 10£ free cash ticket on 23rd March on signing up on current site to ~650euros and not used a HUD because they are banned on that site . What it means is watching the opponents , seeing what they showdown , see how often they limp in , how often they fold to cbets etc and build a mental picture of how to exploit them. I don't sit back and say i have no info because i have no numbers , you have info from every hand that you play against people you just have to learn to interpret what you are seeing happen .
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    So...that's your info?
    Not really, no. That's the point of beginning. That's an illustration to let you know that there is definitely stuff to give you reads on Villains before you've even seen them play a hand. The starting points are very hazy and only offer the tiniest bit of help at first, but we have to start somewhere.

    Let's start with a conversation about what there is to give us reads on Villains.

    Poker is a game of outsmarting people. The cards can be a distraction from this deeper point. My intention is to help you identify the things you've noticed about poker players and link those characteristics to ranges and styles of play.

    Please answer the question about what Villain's choice of poker game and site tells you. Even if it's broad, it will help. It will give you a sketchy outline of all the players you will be facing. The exercise is to think about all of your opponents as a single entity and see what statements can be made. If you play different games, or play on different sites, then you will immediately see that the tendencies of the players is nuanced to that particular site, stakes and game.

    Noticing Villain's starting stack before the hand is a potentially huge piece of information that I've use to make plenty of dollars. A Villain with less than a full buy-in is far less likely to understand pot odds and drawing equities. Getting all-in against them is usually good because A) they make poor folds and poor calls when faced with tough decisions and B) You risk fewer mistakes by playing aggressively and forcing the decisions onto them. I'm not saying that you should play foolishly against them; I'm saying that if you're sensible, you can find some very high profit spots against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    No. To be honest, i can't congeal any read with these numbers. That's why i'm asking!
    Excellent! Let's help with that, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    I see he has a 3bet of 4 in 188 hands..... reliable? Don't think so.
    Just because the numbers don't make sense doesn't mean you have no information. The 4 in 188 means only a little, but it does mean that we'd be shocked if the 'true' value of that stat was over 10% or less than 1%. It certainly tells us he's not the kind to 3-bet all that often. Less often = tighter range.
    So what we can infer is:
    Villain is not a loose cannon with his 3-bets. Furthermore, my experience tells me that a 3-bet of ~4% to 6% is a strong, sensible range for most FR games if a player is trying to play a TAG style.

    Is that a loose descriptor? YES. The point is that we're noticing tendencies first. THEN we link the tendency to its effect on their range. When we take into account all of what we've noticed, we'll find that it's actually enough to be a better poker player.

    Open up a program like Equilab and drag the range slider to 4%. What range is that?

    Since we accept that we could be overstating our certainty about that 4%, drag the slider a bit past 4% and see what combos are added to the range.

    Voila. We have made a loose read into a concrete range. Albeit, we are not absolutely certain about the range, but we have a VERY limited set of hands that we now expect Villain to have going to the flop.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Does he have a 3bet bluffing range against EP with these data? I Don't know.
    So far i have ZERO info about his fold to 4bet.
    You don't know, but you can look at that 4% range in Equilab and notice that if he has bluffing hands in there, then he has to remove some of the hands from the top of his range to keep it (at least near) 4%. This means that when we assume that his 4% is the top 4%, we can only err on the side of being in a stronger position against him (preflop).

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    I have no data of his 3bet pot playing tendencies.
    This is OK.
    You have reads now that he's started the pot with over 100BB, so that makes it less likely that he's an easy fish to catch.
    You know that his VPIP/PFR of 13/10 is a TAG style. He's very selective of his hands PRE. He is probably following a starting hands chart, and is highly likely to be positionally aware with his starting ranges.
    You know his 4% 3-bet stat is consistent with the above TAG style.

    All this is pre-flop info, but we can surmise that he's probably going to be an aggressive player post-flop. His starting hand selection puts him in a good position to have strong hands that play easily post flop because he's avoiding stuff like suited-connectors unless he's in late position. His pre-flop tightness will end up costing him money if he's playing passively and not pushing hard post. He thinks he's "getting away" with a lot of steals post-flop with this style, but it's more likely true that he's actually bluffing with the best hand a large portion of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    BUT that's what i can look for in my very limited experience in NL10! I thought that if i'm missing something in my colorful numbers, someone with more experience could give me some extra imput.
    This is what a see at the table. What am i missing here?
    I have covered a bit. My honest answer to what you're missing is just that it's overwhelming to look at all that data and make sense of it.

    All you need is to be pointed in the right direction and you'll see how you have really been right on track all along. I'm sure you've gathered an intuitive sense of strong players and weak players. The struggle is to attach that intuitive sense to the data in your HUD, and also to ranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Next time i should say that i have no CONTEXT instead of no info.
    I doubt it'd work. I'm pretty nit-picky... if you hadn't noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Please, i'm a begginer in NL10, if you are not gonna be helpful, i would appreciate to show your lack of sex somewhere else.
    I think if you re-read my above post you'll find that while I had a lot to say about your approach, I did my best to give you the answers you asked for. I did my best to point out where I was making assumptions so you could evaluate if my assumptions matched your own.

    I don't know what "lack of sex" means... but it sounds kind of mean.
    I apologize if anything I said hurt your feelings and made you feel the need to strike back at me. I assure you that I only want to offer you my perspective on learning to make mad mojo monies at playing poker.

    I am honestly trying to help you, and I claim no expertise. It's just a friendly conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.
    Done and done.



    Please keep the conversation alive.

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