Mythbusting white privilege

[a500lbgorilla]

There are like 4 ways to go with this.

Why buy into the idea of privilege at all? There will always be someone more privileged than you; be it by circumstance of birth, or opportunity of youth, or fortunate fit within society. Where's the line that cuts between him being more privileged than you and him being better than you? And even when you can see that line, what does it matter that it's there?

I barely claim to understand culture, but I know that it, culture, is accepted and dictated upon by successive generations. And America in particular has a lineage of tolerating slavery of blacks, banning of chinese, interning of japenese, genocide of redskins... I think there's ample reason to prefer being white in America than any other racial option.

[JKDS]

There are like 4 ways to go with this.

Why buy into the idea of privilege at all? There will always be someone more privileged than you; be it by circumstance of birth, or opportunity of youth, or fortunate fit within society. Where's the line that cuts between him being more privileged than you and him being better than you? And even when you can see that line, what does it matter that it's there?

I barely claim to understand culture, but I know that it, culture, is accepted and dictated upon by successive generations. And America in particular has a lineage of tolerating slavery of blacks, banning of chinese, interning of japenese, genocide of redskins... I think there's ample reason to prefer being white in America than any other racial option.

Perhaps privilege is a generalization of a very large group where people of similar circumstances have grouped up?

Meaning perhaps it's an illusion based on generalizing circunstances?

But then we wonder why that generalization can happen, and why it seems that whites are generalized higher than others...is that generalization itself what privilege is?

[Savy]

Meaning perhaps it's an illusion based on generalizing circunstances?

But then we wonder why that generalization can happen, and why it seems that whites are generalized higher than others...is that generalization itself what privilege is?

I agree with this a fair bit, in more black orientated culture the same issues apply. It just never gets called on as it seems to be some sort of correction. Two wrongs make a right etc.

[a500lbgorilla]

Perhaps privilege is a generalization of a very large group where people of similar circumstances have grouped up?

Meaning perhaps it's an illusion based on generalizing circunstances?

But then we wonder why that generalization can happen, and why it seems that whites are generalized higher than others...is that generalization itself what privilege is?

America was white first. It's like investing - the most important elements are principle and time. Get the most in as early as possible and just let it grow.

Here's a heat map of the world.



And here's how white nations managed to lord over it


When people assume White is Right, that's just the dividends paying off on some centuries old investments.

[boost]

I think there's ample reason to prefer being white in America than any other racial option.

Oooh, this is too good of a point to have just been blown by.

Let's say you stumble upon a magical lamp, of course with a genie in it, but this genie is special in that he only grants one wish and in one category-- you get to chose your race and magically it is so. No one knows you did it, there's no fallout from the community you left or any apprehension of acceptance from the community you've joined, the world simply realligns itself in the way that will make reality the closest to current reality but allow for your race to have switched. Of course you can also chose to not take the genie up on this wish. What race do you pick? Why?

[a500lbgorilla]

Oooh, this is too good of a point to have just been blown by.

Let's say you stumble upon a magical lamp, of course with a genie in it, but this genie is special in that he only grants one wish and in one category-- you get to chose your race and magically it is so. No one knows you did it, there's no fallout from the community you left or any apprehension of acceptance from the community you've joined, the world simply realligns itself in the way that will make reality the closest to current reality but allow for your race to have switched. Of course you can also chose to not take the genie up on this wish. What race do you pick? Why?

White. We came from a white nation, the franchise was first white, and for all the ways it has worked to protect and perpetuate itself, whiteness has always been on the in.

[wufwugy]

White. We came from a white nation, the franchise was first white, and for all the ways it has worked to protect and perpetuate itself, whiteness has always been on the in.

Did Curb teach ya nothing about being a black guy with glasses?

[wufwugy]

Oooh, this is too good of a point to have just been blown by.

Let's say you stumble upon a magical lamp, of course with a genie in it, but this genie is special in that he only grants one wish and in one category-- you get to chose your race and magically it is so. No one knows you did it, there's no fallout from the community you left or any apprehension of acceptance from the community you've joined, the world simply realligns itself in the way that will make reality the closest to current reality but allow for your race to have switched. Of course you can also chose to not take the genie up on this wish. What race do you pick? Why?

This is something I've pondered and discussed with others before.

If I can choose to be born in the suburbs, most rural areas, or any non-ghettoized city regions, I'd consider going with black. The question then isn't if I think I would be better off in doing so, but if I would want to deal with all the idolization that would come my way. In a lot of places it's arguably better to be black since you're not viewed through a racist lens but an "enriching the experience of white folk lens" -- which is itself also arguably not something some may want.

My overall point is that I think that if you're a black person in a middle class family and a middle class region, institutions, both governmental and cultural, are favorable to you in contrast to the typical ethnicity. This is especially true if you're Asian, but in the opposite direction. Asians tend to have to over-perform to get to the same place as other ethnic groups. A secondary argument is that the effects are marginal regardless of what/where you are, so it's pointless to talk about groups as if some are privileged and others aren't. The degree to which others affect my life is tiny compared to the degree to which I affect my life.

[boost]

This is something I've pondered and discussed with others before.

If I can choose to be born in the suburbs, most rural areas, or any non-ghettoized city regions, I'd consider going with black. The question then isn't if I think I would be better off in doing so, but if I would want to deal with all the idolization that would come my way. In a lot of places it's arguably better to be black since you're not viewed through a racist lens but an "enriching the experience of white folk lens" -- which is itself also arguably not something some may want.

My overall point is that I think that if you're a black person in a middle class family and a middle class region, institutions, both governmental and cultural, are favorable to you in contrast to the typical ethnicity. This is especially true if you're Asian, but in the opposite direction. Asians tend to have to over-perform to get to the same place as other ethnic groups. A secondary argument is that the effects are marginal regardless of what/where you are, so it's pointless to talk about groups as if some are privileged and others aren't. The degree to which others affect my life is tiny compared to the degree to which I affect my life.

Are there angles you can shoot as a black person? Yeah... But I think you have a seriously delusional idea of what it is like to be non-white. Further the hypothetical was sort of rigged in favour of your argument in that people don't get to chose their background and disproportionately the average black person is going to be born into less preferable circumstances.

Also you seem to be playing both sides here which makes me confused as to whether you support the policies meant to even the playing field. You say you'd chose black because government policy and cultural (awareness of white privilege?) give black people a leg up. So are you saying these things are good, or are you under the impression that without them it would still be preferable to be black (given the circumstances you specified), or even that it would be a wash with being white? I guess what I'm saying is that in summary you seem to be arguing that there was an over correction (because you certainly don't deny there was a problem), yet you prescription is an elimination of all policies enacted to even the playing fields.

[wufwugy]

Are there angles you can shoot as a black person? Yeah... But I think you have a seriously delusional idea of what it is like to be non-white. Further the hypothetical was sort of rigged in favour of your argument in that people don't get to chose their background and disproportionately the average black person is going to be born into less preferable circumstances.

Also you seem to be playing both sides here which makes me confused as to whether you support the policies meant to even the playing field. You say you'd chose black because government policy and cultural (awareness of white privilege?) give black people a leg up. So are you saying these things are good, or are you under the impression that without them it would still be preferable to be black (given the circumstances you specified), or even that it would be a wash with being white? I guess what I'm saying is that in summary you seem to be arguing that there was an over correction (because you certainly don't deny there was a problem), yet you prescription is an elimination of all policies enacted to even the playing fields.

The effects of special treatment end up not being a net "leg up", partly because the costs aren't associated proportionately. My hypothetical was focused on the micro while policy is macro.

Another way of putting it is this: would I take special treatment if offered to me? Yes. Would it help me? Not necessarily to no.

[boost]

The effects of special treatment end up not being a net "leg up", partly because the costs aren't associated proportionately. My hypothetical was focused on the micro while policy is macro.

Another way of putting it is this: would I take special treatment if offered to me? Yes. Would it help me? Not necessarily to no.

I get why, due to imperfect information, people make decisions counter to their own interest-- but your choice to still eat the poisoned cookie while having what you believe to be all the requisite information is a laughably bad justification for your contradictions.

[wufwugy]

I get why, due to imperfect information, people make decisions counter to their own interest-- but your choice to still eat the poisoned cookie while having what you believe to be all the requisite information is a laughably bad justification for your contradictions.

I'm not sure that I understand your point.

It can be the case that you could take advantage of something individually yet the existence of the policy that incentivizes that behavior is bad for a group of which you're a part.

Like, there's a glaring contradiction in your rhetoric. Why are you prescribing solutions to a problem that does not exist? If affirmative action and similar policies are detrimental to blacks, how is it that there is no white privilege?

When we say things like "such and such is bad for blacks", we're describing observations regarding causal relationships in simple terms. "Privilege" doesn't do that. It's just, um, well, a shitty concept. It's virtually undefinable and unfalsifiable. Following the point you made, I could say that because whites don't get the unintended consequences that cause a net negative through special treatment on college admissions, whites are privileged. But how dumb would saying that be?

I don't have a full answer on this topic, which is part of why I made this thread. The concept rubs me the wrong way because one can always point to an inequality and claim a privileged/unprivileged dynamic. Historically, that has been a counterproductive tool and societies have done serious damage to themselves by using it. At least results of things like welfare. "Privilege" can't. It just hangs out in the ether or something.