Brexit

[wufwugy]

You seem to think that the UK is going to start making good economic decisions as a result of leaving the EU. That isn't going to happen.

Sovereignty doesn't make people better at making economic decisions; it makes it easier for better economic decisions to be made.

I think this one event will overall improve the UK economy in the long run in a very small way. However, along with the reason why I said this is possibly one of the biggest votes in the 21st century, if this snowballs into the dissolution of the EU, it will result in significant long term economic and political health. Keep in mind that the reason Brexit even happened is because the EU is such a terrible economic institution that its economy has entered a phase where it is pretty much unable to improve nor instill confidence. Brexit happened because the EU is a failure.

[wufwugy]

I'm still stunned by this.



Whelp...

What stuns you?

[a500lbgorilla]

What stuns you?

It's a pretty chaotic path they chose. I expected them to be boring.

[wufwugy]

It is likely that the negative market signs will be very short-lived (for the UK). The weaker southern EU markets have fallen much more sharply. The US markets are signaling this isn't a real shock. For the UK, it's gonna come down to what the Bank of England does. The BoE is one of the better central banks, but central banking norms are still out-to-lunch on some things, so it's impossible to predict how the BoE will react. The Fed will probably react well because the Fed is gangster at reacting well to problems not caused by the Fed (and abysmal at recognizing the problems it causes itself). The ECB, well, who the fuck knows what the ECB will do. The ECB has long since decided stagnation is totes amazebutts.

[rong]

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borow...ans-are-dumber

[a500lbgorilla]

It is likely that the negative market signs will be very short-lived (for the UK). The weaker southern EU markets have fallen much more sharply. The US markets are signaling this isn't a real shock. For the UK, it's gonna come down to what the Bank of England does. The BoE is one of the better central banks, but central banking norms are still out-to-lunch on some things, so it's impossible to predict how the BoE will react. The Fed will probably react well because the Fed is gangster at reacting well to problems not caused by the Fed (and abysmal at recognizing the problems it causes itself). The ECB, well, who the fuck knows what the ECB will do. The ECB has long since decided stagnation is totes amazebutts.

But it's not just about the UK. Now Ireland and Scotland can respond to Britain proper choosing chaos by choosing further chaos. And whose to say that member-states within the continent-proper don't also insist on chaos in the face of this provocative move?

There's a lot that can happen, and while I still expect the most boring of all paths, who knows what'll happen?

[rong]

It is likely that the negative market signs will be very short-lived (for the UK). The weaker southern EU markets have fallen much more sharply. The US markets are signaling this isn't a real shock. For the UK, it's gonna come down to what the Bank of England does. The BoE is one of the better central banks, but central banking norms are still out-to-lunch on some things, so it's impossible to predict how the BoE will react. The Fed will probably react well because the Fed is gangster at reacting well to problems not caused by the Fed (and abysmal at recognizing the problems it causes itself). The ECB, well, who the fuck knows what the ECB will do. The ECB has long since decided stagnation is totes amazebutts.

First thing I did this morning was email my investors who are extremely smart and successful city folk, amd ask what they expected the repercussions to be regarding economy, housing market and lending appetite of financial institutions.

The response was a chorus of nothing will change for the foreseeable future, which surprised me.

[a500lbgorilla]

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borow...ans-are-dumber

Onion light btw, but yeah, I wanted to dump on you dummies all day. I'm waiting for the best memes.

[a500lbgorilla]

First thing I did this morning was email my investors who are extremely smart and successful city folk, amd ask what they expected the repercussions to be regarding economy, housing market and lending appetite of financial institutions.

The response was a chorus of nothing will change for the foreseeable future, which surprised me.

How far is the foreseeable future? 3ish+ years? Britain still has to hammer out it's exit over the next 2 years.

I would expect them to want you to settle while they figure out what's up. No one really knows how this is gonna shake out right now.

[wufwugy]

It takes a little bit of chaos to set things right. The path to tyranny is the boring path.

[a500lbgorilla]

It takes a little bit of chaos to set things right. The path to tyranny is the boring path.

Sure, sure, it's still stunning.

Also, chaos sets things wrong.

[rong]

How far is the foreseeable future? 3ish+ years? Britain still has to hammer out it's exit over the next 2 years.

I would expect them to want you to settle while they figure out what's up. No one really knows how this is gonna shake out right now.

I imagine they were talking 2 years.

[rong]

We need a leader before we can settle. Strangely enough, as I didn't vote for him, I was reasonably content with the thought of Cameron negotiating the split.

[wufwugy]

Sure, sure, it's still stunning.

Also, chaos sets things wrong.

I'm just using the term in your frame. I'm not a fan of your frame but I realize why you're saying it. There is increased uncertainty right now. You can call that chaos if you want, I guess.

[a500lbgorilla]

I would expect them to want you to settle while they figure out what's up. No one really knows how this is gonna shake out right now.

Though, that is to say, 2 years, why not settle down?

[a500lbgorilla]

We need a leader before we can settle. Strangely enough, as I didn't vote for him, I was reasonably content with the thought of Cameron negotiating the split.

The very first thing I thought when my radio woke me up this morning saying Brexit was successful was that Boris Johnson would be PM.

[wufwugy]

Sure, sure, it's still stunning.

Also, chaos sets things wrong.

I'd also add that too much chaos is also the path to tyranny. Never get too boring or too chaotic.

[wufwugy]

First thing I did this morning was email my investors who are extremely smart and successful city folk, amd ask what they expected the repercussions to be regarding economy, housing market and lending appetite of financial institutions.

The response was a chorus of nothing will change for the foreseeable future, which surprised me.

That's good.

[rong]

I'm just using the term in your frame. I'm not a fan of your frame but I realize why you're saying it. There is increased uncertainty right now. You can call that chaos if you want, I guess.

There's enough uncertainty to call it at least potential chaos. UK may split, N. Ireland could join back to Ireland, entire eu could fall apart, potential for a worldwide recession. I think that's worthy of chaos.

[rong]

The very first thing I thought when my radio woke me up this morning saying Brexit was successful was that Boris Johnson would be PM.

Apparently there's a whole bunch of abb's within the party, so he'll have his work cut out. He seen as a buffoon by many.

[rong]

That's good.

I paniced a bit when I got one of these emails:

Dear Mr xxxxxxx,

On Tuesday 28 June we’re increasing rates on all our 5 year products and extending the product end dates.

New products

None.

Rates going down

None.

Rates going up or being replaced

All 5 year deals

But it was only the one email.

[a500lbgorilla]

You don't have contracts with them?

[rong]

You don't have contracts with them?

I don't know what you mean.

[The Bean Counter]

In with my 1000th post - sign behind him says it all:

Attachment 894

[The Bean Counter]

My fixed term mortgage deal is due to end in a few weeks. I figured I'd wait and potentially get a slightly better deal once the remain vote went through. I think Brexit will cost me £200-£300 more per month, as least for a few months.

A world led by Putin, Trump and Boris is worrying. You'd think Trump will get some more traction now the UK has made a big political move.

[rong]

My fixed term mortgage deal is due to end in a few weeks. I figured I'd wait and potentially get a slightly better deal once the remain vote went through. I think Brexit will cost me £200-£300 more per month, as least for a few months.

You can remo in under 6 weeks easy enough.

[a500lbgorilla]

I don't know what you mean.

Guess it depends on what you're buying.

[wufwugy]

[wufwugy]

cheese, but i lold

[a500lbgorilla]

[a500lbgorilla]

Current feelings:



Future Predictions:

[a500lbgorilla]

[a500lbgorilla]

German Foreign Office tweets it is headed to an Irish pub 'to get decently drunk

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-2...sh-pub/7543520

[a500lbgorilla]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028

Jesus Christ...





There's a Boston in England?

[a500lbgorilla]

The strangest thing to me is that this vote wasn't coupled with War. How does Britain come to the table with the EU now that is has a mandate of the people to leave the EU and all forces of interest with trading with the EU? The EU could offer the worst terms to Britain and Britain has no response.

People are mad, in every sense of the word.

[a500lbgorilla]

It's also interesting to notice that you can get basically any issue to 52/48 split if both sides are working to win.

[OngBonga]

There's a Boston in England?

I only learned this during election night.

The EU could offer the worst terms to Britain and Britain has no response.

We import more off them they they do off us. They stand to lose more than we do if negotiations fail. We can now unilaterally arrange free trade with anyone outside of the EU, whereas they can't. There's a reason this is hitting European markets more than ours.

It's also interesting to notice that you can get basically any issue to 52/48 split if both sides are working to win.

Much is being made of how "close" it was. The Leave campaign won by over 1.2 million votes - that's more than Birmingham, the second city. This is not insignificant. It's bordering on comfortable.

[a500lbgorilla]

We import more off them they they do off us. They stand to lose more than we do if negotiations fail. We can now unilaterally arrange free trade with anyone outside of the EU, whereas they can't. There's a reason this is hitting European markets more than ours.

It's a matter of size. The EU may lose more in raw rupees than the UK, but the UK's economy is widely more dependent on on the EU than vice versa.

It'd be like Cuba deciding to stop trade with mainland America. America would manage no matter what happened. Oh wait, that kinda happened.

The top export destinations of the United Kingdom are the United States ($51B), Germany ($46.5B), the Netherlands ($34.2B), Switzerland ($33.6B) and France ($27B).

Let's just cross off those EU nations, shall we?

The top export destinations of the United Kingdom are the United States ($51B), Switzerland ($33.6B).

Ouch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...an_Union#Trade

I wonder where the UK will fall on this list? Number 1?

Get a Donny Trump as chief negotiator of the EU and Britain is boned.

I only learned this during election night

How come it isn't New Boston, Massachusetts? This world makes no sense!

[Savy]

Much is being made of how "close" it was. The Leave campaign won by over 1.2 million votes - that's more than Birmingham, the second city. This is not insignificant. It's bordering on comfortable.

Absolute rubbish, percentages are used for a reason. It was close, anyone arguing otherwise is an idiot. The fact it was close doesn't change anything, people arguing that it does are also idiots.

It's a matter of size. The EU may lose more in raw rupees than the UK, but the UK's economy is widely more dependent on on the EU than vice versa.

It's massively in the EU's favour to make the UK come out of this as poorly as possible as other right wing parties in other countries are pushing for the same thing & governments will no doubt pander to save votes. If the UK comes out rosy then they'll haemorrhage members.

[a500lbgorilla]

It's massively in the EU's favour to make the UK come out of this as poorly as possible as other right wing parties in other countries are pushing for the same thing & governments will no doubt pander to save votes. If the UK comes out rosy then they'll haemorrhage members.

Also an incredible point. EU needs to protect itself.

[rong]

People will believe whatever suits them.

People are stupid.

And worryingly, in spite of coming over as a retard, ong has an iq way above the average, demonstrating that even the intelligent ones are stupid when it suits.

[wufwugy]

If it was the case that the UK were to lose out on trade because of leaving the EU, it would be because the EU has wrong, bad, harmful protectionist trade policies.

[rong]

That's both irrelevant and debatable.

The EU came about for a reason. Agreed it's grown a little in ways I'm it a fan of and not necessarily doing the greatest jobs in some regards, but it does have value, even if it isn't in pure economic terms.

[wufwugy]

What value does the EU provide?

[a500lbgorilla]

What value does the EU provide?

Markets and workers.

You might be surprised by this, but the wealth of the world is born through work and trade, and Europe does a lot of those.

[rong]

It's taken a bunch of countries who were at each other's throats for years and changed the way the people within those countries feel about each other. It's made strides toward creating a real community without borders, which makes it a far safer area full of people who aren't just looking at what's best for them as individuals, but what's bets for the group as a whole.

Its encouraged other countries in the surrounding area to adhere to certain principles in order to join it, which include human rights, protection of minority groups, and a guarantee of democracy.

It's given the countries within it a greater voice within the international community due to nothing more than scale.

Annnnnmnd.... That's the best I can do on my phone without research or serious thought. I feel I under sold it though.

[rong]

Lol oh yeah, a big fuck off market with no barriers to trade, that's a big one too.

[a500lbgorilla]

The more I think about it, the more I'm salty as the dead sea.

People agreed to live in a post-war world where we competed on location, effort, talent, network, resources, and knowledge. Some people weren't fans, but they still endured lives that... I haven't the words... weren't bad. But still, they look at those that have more, that seem happier, that they judge jealously, and they're made angry.

But what does their anger win? What does their fury make? What does their discontent accomplish?

This vote seems very stupid to me.

[rong]

This clip is probably the most awesome thing I've seen regarding the whole brexit thing.


http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57...fa8?edition=uk

[a500lbgorilla]

My hope

Scotland leaves the UK
Scotland rejoins the EU
England joins Scotland as a United Kingdom
England is part of the EU

[rong]

The more I think about it, the more I'm salty as the dead sea.

People agreed to live in a post-war world where we competed on location, effort, talent, network, resources, and knowledge. Some people weren't fans, but they still endured lives that... I haven't the words... weren't bad. But still, they look at those that have more, that seem happier, that they judge jealously, and they're made angry.

But what does their anger win? What does their fury make? What does their discontent accomplish?

This vote seems very stupid to me.

The more I've been reading, the better I think I understand it.

The leave votes are of 3 camps.

1. Racist (sizable chunk).

2. Want out on principle as feel that some power has been lost to unelected euro folk. (rich folk who don't care about economic downturn as are very comfortable anyway. Very small chunk)

3. The people the system has failed. Basically the poorest of our society. The North, Wales, Cornwall. Low average income, low employment, low social mobility, low on opportunities in general. These guys probably feel the greatest dorect benefit from the eu in terms of net flown of cash from area, so low income means low tax and therefore contribution to eu payments, but also receive lots in terms of grants and funding for regeneration. But for these guys, in spite of this, they still feel let down, forgotten and that no party they could vote for really gives a shit about them. And this referendum was seen simply as an opportunity for change, nothing more. (large chunk)

[a500lbgorilla]

2. Want out on principle as feel that some power has been lost to unelected euro folk. (rich folk who don't care about economic downturn as are very comfortable anyway. Very small chunk)

3. The people the system has failed. Basically the poorest of our society. The North, Wales, Cornwall. Low average income, low employment, low social mobility, low on opportunities in general. These guys probably feel the greatest dorect benefit from the eu in terms of net flown of cash from area, so low income means low tax and therefore contribution to eu payments, but also receive lots in terms of grants and funding for regeneration. But for these guys, in spite of this, they still feel let down, forgotten and that no party they could vote for really gives a shit about them. And this referendum was seen simply as an opportunity for change, nothing more. (large chunk)

Well that's pretty fair.

And here we are.

[a500lbgorilla]

[a500lbgorilla]

State 51. Can't wait to hate you more than Mississippi.

[rong]

Let's find out just how special we are.

[Keith]

i think its tough shit on the Scots . they only just voted to stay in the UK and that involves taking the good with the bad . The can't just call for a new referendum everytime the UK makes a deision that they don't like. Also ironic in that if they did leave , all trade would have to go by sea otherwise they'd have to travel through whatever tariffs England applied on trade travelling via channel tunnel/ferries.

[wufwugy]

Markets and workers.

You might be surprised by this, but the wealth of the world is born through work and trade, and Europe does a lot of those.

I'm asking what value the EU provides, not things that happen despite the EU. Additionally, if it is true that the EU makes trade better for EU countries it means the EU is bad for global trade. A trade union is not an economic idea but a political one. The economic idea is pretty straight forward unilateral deregulation.

[wufwugy]

It's taken a bunch of countries who were at each other's throats for years and changed the way the people within those countries feel about each other. It's made strides toward creating a real community without borders, which makes it a far safer area full of people who aren't just looking at what's best for them as individuals, but what's bets for the group as a whole.

Its encouraged other countries in the surrounding area to adhere to certain principles in order to join it, which include human rights, protection of minority groups, and a guarantee of democracy.

It's given the countries within it a greater voice within the international community due to nothing more than scale.

Annnnnmnd.... That's the best I can do on my phone without research or serious thought. I feel I under sold it though.

These are good things, but it's hard to say that they are things done by the EU. The benefits you're describing come from economic prosperity. The question is then what does the EU do for economic prosperity? It has deregulated borders, which is very A+ stuff for economic prosperity. Ironically, this bit them in the ass since too many borders were added to that list.

[a500lbgorilla]

I'm asking what value the EU provides, not things that happen despite the EU. Additionally, if it is true that the EU makes trade better for EU countries it means the EU is bad for global trade. A trade union is not an economic idea but a political one. The economic idea is pretty straight forward unilateral deregulation.

Politics before Religion. Politics before Economics.

The value of the EU is obvious - it's agreement. When has any economist ever turned his nose to agreement?

[wufwugy]

The type of idea the EU represents is one for the purpose of increasing political power foremost, not for increasing economic benefit foremost even though it is sold as that. If it was the case that the good things you mentioned were top priority, those things would come about more effectively through unilateral deregulation. For example, if it's good for Germany with the EU making trade and migration in Germany relatively free, it would also be good for Germany for Germany to have done that unilaterally without the need for an EU in the first place. You can get to the same economic goals without the EU.

This EU, the one we have today, showed that it is a monster lurking in the shadows by way of it being run by unelected bureaucrats with political supremacy over member nations and that its member economies are incapable of recovering. Now is the time to break it and stop it from causing more damage.

[rong]

Agreed these aren't just down to the EU. But the EU was part of that whole movement, of finding common ground and shared values. It lead to cooperation between countries that would in itself lead to greater economic interaction and as such prosperity. And by bringing in new countries who are committing to these same principles it spreads peace, unity and prosperity as it grows.

Agreed that the very same thing is potentially leading to its downfall, until still don't think those things should just be dismissed.

[a500lbgorilla]

These are good things, but it's hard to say that they are things done by the EU. The benefits you're describing come from economic prosperity. The question is then what does the EU do for economic prosperity? It has deregulated borders, which is very A+ stuff for economic prosperity. Ironically, this bit them in the ass since too many borders were added to that list.

I mean, yeah, if for nothing else, deregulating borders is an A+. Letting more people interact more easily - it reduces friction.

[a500lbgorilla]

The type of idea the EU represents is one for the purpose of increasing political power foremost, not for increasing economic benefit foremost even though it is sold as that. If it was the case that the good things you mentioned were top priority, those things would come about more effectively through unilateral deregulation. For example, if it's good for Germany with the EU making trade and migration in Germany relatively free, it would also be good for Germany for Germany to have done that unilaterally without the need for an EU in the first place. You can get to the same economic goals without the EU.

This EU, the one we have today, showed that it is a monster lurking in the shadows by way of it being run by unelected bureaucrats with political supremacy over member nations and that its member economies are incapable of recovering. Now is the time to break it and stop it from causing more damage.

Deregulate too much and you invite war, I'm telling you. What happens when you allow too much competition?

[wufwugy]

Deregulate too much and you invite war, I'm telling you. What happens when you allow too much competition?

You may be thinking of a different kind of deregulation FWIW. Accepting goods, services, and labor from any source without tariffs or taxes on them is a tough way to start a war. Unless you mean an economic war, one of the good kinds, where the neighboring countries also start deregulating their own acceptance of goods, services, and labor since they want to keep up with the prosperity.

[a500lbgorilla]

You may be thinking of a different kind of deregulation FWIW. Accepting goods, services, and labor from any source without tariffs or taxes on them is a tough way to start a war. Unless you mean an economic war, one of the good kinds, where the neighboring countries also start deregulating their own acceptance of goods, services, and labor since they want to keep up with the prosperity.

I think you're thinking of specifically the American model of army, where the Armed forces are fully under the command of a democratically elected leader and held as a basic check and service for the basic person across all the states, separated from the political process. This isn't how France uses its army. This isn't how Britain operates its...

[Savy]

Agreed these aren't just down to the EU. But the EU was part of that whole movement, of finding common ground and shared values. It lead to cooperation between countries that would in itself lead to greater economic interaction and as such prosperity. And by bringing in new countries who are committing to these same principles it spreads peace, unity and prosperity as it grows.

Agreed that the very same thing is potentially leading to its downfall, until still don't think those things should just be dismissed.

Can't be arsed looking for the relevant post but what are your thoughts on getting mortgages as a first time buyer both just before the referendum and in the near future?

Unless I've completely misunderstood what you do for a living.

[wufwugy]

I think you're thinking of specifically the American model of army, where the Armed forces are fully under the command of a democratically elected leader and held as a basic check and service for the basic person across all the states, separated from the political process. This isn't how France uses its army. This isn't how Britain operates its...

It appears you're getting at the idea that the EU has kept Europe safe from war. It's a meme that has grown in popularity recently. I do not subscribe to it.

Europe has been free of war since 1945 because of America. Sure, the internal desire for no war that Britain and France had been playing with for a few decades helped and the new desire from Germany for the same did as well, but what really happened is that continental Europe gave primacy to the US military.

[a500lbgorilla]

It appears you're getting at the idea that the EU has kept Europe safe from war. It's a meme that has grown in popularity recently. I do not subscribe to it.

Europe has been free of war since 1945 because of America. Sure, the internal desire for no war that Britain and France had been playing with for a few decades helped and the new desire from Germany for the same did as well, but what really happened is that continental Europe gave primacy to the US military.

War is always on the table. Gotta keep eyes on it at all times.

[rong]

Can't be arsed looking for the relevant post but what are your thoughts on getting mortgages as a first time buyer both just before the referendum and in the near future?

Unless I've completely misunderstood what you do for a living.

It depends.

It's so cheap to borrow now, even with a small deposit. So it depends on why you're buying. If it's a long term home then nothing that's happening really matters as property price fluctuations don't effect you until you need to realize it.

Expectation seems to be that growth in property value may slow, but value will still increase, just at a lower rate. It's cheaper than renting and returns on safe investments as an alternative to putting the deposit into a home suck balls, so if I was in a position to buy I can't see why I wouldn't.

That said, if you were thinking to buy now and sell in 2 years, if say you planned to move for career or something, I might be out off just because the timing or your intended sale could coincide with the formal eu exit and if you only have a tiny deposit that equity could get eaten up if there is a temporary fall in value at that point.

[rong]

War is always on the table. Gotta keep eyes on it at all times.

I could imagine a full eu breakup prompting a Russian expansion.

[wufwugy]

Only if Obama is still President.

[The Bean Counter]

It depends.

It's so cheap to borrow now....

I'm assuming that will change quite quickly though with the UK credit rating drop? Plus inflationary pressures could force the BoE to increase the base rate. How about the uncertainty of the current situation - will banks effectively freeze new lending, or are they still okay with secured loans?

I'm hoping I can still get a good remortgage deal soon at 80% LTV. Fingers crossed.

[The Bean Counter]

Was talking to a guy yesterday who owns some fruit farms (if that's what you call them). His business is basically fucked without Eastern European labour. His experience with British labour is that it's incredibly unreliable and unproductive and I don't think his experience is unusual either in terms of British business owners - if you want some manual labour delivered cheaply and to a good standard in 2016, you get an Eastern European to do it. Going to be very difficult for many UK businesses to compete without the economic migrants.

[rong]

I'm assuming that will change quite quickly though with the UK credit rating drop? Plus inflationary pressures could force the BoE to increase the base rate. How about the uncertainty of the current situation - will banks effectively freeze new lending, or are they still okay with secured loans?

I'm hoping I can still get a good remortgage deal soon at 80% LTV. Fingers crossed.

Well it certainly can change quickly, and I thought it would have done already. But my understanding is that it will remain cheap for the foreseeable future.

And BTW you should be looking at remortgaging up to 6 months before your deal ends so don't hang around if you're concerned. 80% deals are still ridiculously good.

[OngBonga]

And worryingly, in spite of coming over as a retard, ong has an iq way above the average, demonstrating that even the intelligent ones are stupid when it suits.

I'll take the compliment and ignore the two insults.

The UK leaving the EU is like Cuba being cut off from USA? That made me laugh more than rong's post.

Let's just cross off those EU nations, shall we?

Yes, let's just auto assume that we won't be able to negotiate trade agreements with Europe.

Absolute rubbish, percentages are used for a reason. It was close, anyone arguing otherwise is an idiot. The fact it was close doesn't change anything, people arguing that it does are also idiots.

Your second point is spot on. Hoenstly, the fact two million people have signed a petition that basically says "we don't want democracy" is worrying.

The first point, I'm sorry but I can't consider over a million people to be "close". I went to bed when the margin was at around 700k and the BBC had called it for leave, I knew we'd won but I wanted us to get over 1m to ensure that there could be no doubt that it's what the country wanted, I considered 1m to be a significant milestone. When the entire population of Birmingham is the difference, there's little room for doubt. What's more, when you take away Scotland, the margin certainly moves into "comfortable" territory.

It's good that the UK is not being forced into an economic and political bloc by a nation that came very close to leaving the union. It would be unacceptable if Scotland was the reason we stayed in, and then they voted out some day in the future anyway, which would have happened eventually.

Markets and workers.

Or, to put this another way, regulations and economic immigration.

Lol oh yeah, a big fuck off market with no barriers to trade, that's a big one too.

Now we have an even bigger fuck off market with which to trade, and the only barriers are the ones we fail to mutually remove.

Everything that the EU is so proud of in terms of bringing peace to Europe is utter bollocks. Peace happens when everyone wants it, it's not something that can be forced into happening by the existence of a common economic model. If that were true, civil wars wouldn't happen. The EU is merely a reflection of the common desire in Europe for peace. But one does not need to be in it to live in peace with your neighbours. See Switzerland. Not only have they not engaged in war since becoming officially and permanently neutral in 1815, their economy outpeforms ours on a per capita basis. They are not in the EU.