The Wall

[OngBonga]

Your point was that I'd get shot in the face if I grow weed where cartels operate. My point is that if weed were legal, there would be no cartel operating, because they have no means of profit.

If all drugs were legal, then the cartels would be fucked. They would have no revenue, and would no longer be able to pay their foot soldiers. Their empire would crumble. Violent crime has gone down in USA? The vast majority of violent crime that is left revolves around control of the narcotic black market. Legalise it, and watch crime fall even further. Well maybe not at first, as all those bad dudes currently profitting from the status quo would no longer have their easy revenue, and would possibly turn to more serious crime. But long term, I don't see how cartels can survive in a world where drugs are legal. They can't compete in an open and free market.

[Jack Sawyer]

It's not. That's my point. Legalizing drugs won't solve the problem.

It would solve the prison population thing which the US is now known for around the world for starters

[BananaStand]

It would solve the prison population thing which the US is now known for around the world for starters

I need several decimal places to illustrate how few people are in prison for lowest-level drug offenses.

Everyone else is in there because they trafficked, distributed, or manufactured drugs. Or, they have some low-level drug charge along with some other more serious charge, usually involving violence.

Do you think these people are all gentle little kittens? Are they all well-meaning, morally upstanding, socially conscious people?

Leaving these people on the street, whether they are involved in drugs or not, is a terrible idea.

[Savy]

I need several decimal places to illustrate how few people are in prison for lowest-level drug offenses.

I'm pretty sure you haven't once posted anything resembling concrete data for the same point that you have made about 5 times.

[BananaStand]

I'm pretty sure you haven't once posted anything resembling concrete data for the same point that you have made about 5 times.

Are you kidding me? I most definitely have.

The concrete data is....247 people are in federal prison for drug possession.

EDIT: Correction, it's actually 296 based on the most recent data I can find, dated 9/30/12

[BananaStand]

I don't see how cartels can survive in a world where drugs are legal. They can't compete in an open and free market.

What?? Who would they compete with? Are there legit businesses out there with access to poppy crops, and the skills/equipment necessary to process it into heroin?

If drugs were legalized, it would still be the cartels running shit. They would just operate with immunity from prosecution.

Of course they would remain competitive. Legalizing drugs would make their lives a shit-ton easier. They already have a monopoly, and you'd be handing them a massive competitive advantage.

[OngBonga]

What?? Who would they compete with? Are there legit businesses out there with access to poppy crops, and the skills/equipment necessary to process it into heroin?

There would be lots of legit businesses if it were legalised. Cigarette companies would immediately invest huge sums.

If drugs were legalized, it would still be the cartels running shit. They would just operate with immunity from prosecution.

Immunity from prosecution for their drug activites, sure. But not from their intimidation and violence.

Of course they would remain competitive. Legalizing drugs would make their lives a shit-ton easier. They already have a monopoly, and you'd be handing them a massive competitive advantage.

Perhaps. It would make their lives easier in the sense they would no longer be criminals if all they were doing was producing and selling drugs. Why is that a problem? They only have a monopoly because legitimate businesses can't touch drugs. I'm propsing taking that monopoly away. What makes you think they can survive legitimate competition?

[Poopadoop]

Immunity from prosecution for their drug activites, sure. But not from their intimidation and violence.

More importantly, there'd be no reason for them to be trying to kill each other all the time, since they could live much easier lives and avoid all chances of going to jail by just selling their product.

[Jack Sawyer]

What?? Who would they compete with? Are there legit businesses out there with access to poppy crops, and the skills/equipment necessary to process it into heroin?

If drugs were legalized, it would still be the cartels running shit. They would just operate with immunity from prosecution.

Of course they would remain competitive. Legalizing drugs would make their lives a shit-ton easier. They already have a monopoly, and you'd be handing them a massive competitive advantage.

The profits wouldn't be as much where the legal drugs are. Keeping it illegal, makes trade in these highly risky but also extremely lucrative. There is a reason why there's no cartel competing with Marlboro, but e.g. Camel and Nevada are.


Marlboro itself is the cartel, but their shit is like pushing drugs (nicotine) to children in malaysia for example.


Getting the massive profits they get right now legally would take several Shkreli-level shenanigans, which is definitely NOT cartel modi operandi.


Gun manufacturers (remember this? https://www.wikiwand.com/en/ATF_gunwalking_scandal) and drug cartels profit the most from the drug war

[BananaStand]

The profits wouldn't be as much where the legal drugs are.

I don't see how.

One of the major drivers of the heroin epidemic is the fact that the drugs are so friggen cheap. Add to that, the fact that the cartels have a monopoly on production, and ask yourself 'why in the world would they lower the price?'.

If drugs were legal, that would significantly reduce the risk associated with manufacture, shipping, and distribution. Less risk = less cost.

Profit = Revenue - Expenses

If revenue remains constant, and expenses decrease, what happens to Profit?

[Jack Sawyer]

The profits wouldn't be as much where the legal drugs are.

I don't see how.

NP, I already wrote how. You just have to put the pieces together. I can’t think for you

Keeping it illegal, makes trade in these highly risky but also extremely lucrative. There is a reason why there's no cartel competing with Marlboro, but e.g. Camel and Nevada are.

There.

One of the major drivers of the heroin epidemic is the fact that the drugs are so friggen cheap. Add to that, the fact that the cartels have a monopoly on production, and ask yourself 'why in the world would they lower the price?'.

Perhaps cheap to make, but to the addict, it becomes incredibly expensive. Krokodil is also one of those.

If drugs were legal, that would significantly reduce the risk associated with manufacture, shipping, and distribution. Less risk = less cost.


Profit = Revenue - Expenses


If revenue remains constant, and expenses decrease, what happens to Profit?

Which is why the cartels wouldn’t ever want for drugs to be realized. It’s just not in their best interest for drugs to ever, ever, ever be legalized. None they produce, “market” and ship anyway.


I’ll reiterate

Keeping it illegal, makes trade in these highly risky but also extremely lucrative. There is a reason why there's no cartel competing with Marlboro, but e.g. Camel and Nevada are.

Thanks for making my point for me. I made it before though, but still, it’s good to see that you came around to the same conclusion.

[BananaStand]

NP, I already wrote how. You just have to put the pieces together. I can’t think for you

I don't think you put anything together, you just talked yourself in a circle.

Keeping it illegal, makes trade in these highly risky but also extremely lucrative. There is a reason why there's no cartel competing with Marlboro, but e.g. Camel and Nevada are.

Tobacco was never illegal, what are you even talking about?

Perhaps cheap to make, but to the addict, it becomes incredibly expensive

False, scroll up. Heroin use costs $1 per hour.

Which is why the cartels wouldn’t ever want for drugs to be realized. It’s just not in their best interest for drugs to ever, ever, ever be legalized. None they produce, “market” and ship anyway.

Why? The retail price for the drug is already dirt cheap. What risk is there of the market forces bringing about a drop in price?

If the price stays the same, then the cartels won't lose any revenue. In fact, I'd argue that revenue would go up, since they'll have access to more legal methods of distribution. So revenue is flat, or increasing.

Legalizing drugs means I can just drive a U-haul truck over the border filled with all the H it can fit. That's HUGELY less expensive than paying mules to take smaller shipments via much more dangerous routes.

Debt collection becomes easier. Small claims court is way cheaper than hiring a thug with a machine gun to intimidate those who owe you money.

I could go on, but the point is, that costs come down. Legalizing drugs gives the cartels an easier, and cheaper, method to distribute their poison. Where does that cost savings go? Will it go to make an already dirt cheap product even cheaper? Or will the Escobars have an extra-nice Christmas?

I’ll reiterate

So will I. The formula for Profit = Revenue - Expenses

If Revenue remains constant, and expenses go down, what happens to Profit??

Thanks for making my point for me. I made it before though, but still, it’s good to see that you came around to the same conclusion.

What exactly is your point?

That the cartels will be out of a job if you legalize drugs? Who will push them out of the market? Who's got poppy fields and distribution networks ready to compete with a monopoly?

Or is your point that they will have to pay more in taxes and regulatory fees than they currently pay for illegal transport and distribution? If so, show me those numbers.