*** The Official MAGAposting thread ***

[Mr.Banana]

Monkey, I'm going to try and explain this one more time. I'm shocked at how tragically you're missing the point here.

Most of what I know and think on this subject comes from the case of the baker in colorado whose claim went all the way up to the supreme court. The supreme court and I have completely congruent opinions on this case. So what I'm about to explain to you isn't just a banana-rant, it's also the law of the land.

You can go to the grocery store today, walk up to the bakery counter, and you'll find a catalog of all the different cakes you can order from their bakery. Most of them are for little kid's birthdays. But they'll write "happy retirement" or "sorry you got pwned in the forum" on a cake if you want them to. You can point to a picture of a basic cake, with a predetermined design and say "give me that one please"

Anyone can do that. Even gays. I don't know if the baker in the big case sold cakes like that (standard designs out of a catalog), but if he does, he has to sell them to gays. If a gay comes in and asks for a birthday cake, this baker would sell him the cake. If a gay person asks for a retirement cake he'll get it. If he asks for a 4th of July cake, he gets it. If he asks for a cake celebrating his anal prolapse...he gets it.

The baker in the big case AGREES with all of this. He doesn't discriminate against anyone on the basis of being gay. What he has a problem with is *participating* in something he finds sinful. It's extremely important that you understand this. He's not saying "I don't sell cakes to gays". He is saying "please leave me out of your sin". A gay person having a birthday is not a sin...here's a cake. A gay person retiring is not a sin...here's a cake. A gay person celebrating 4th of july is not a sin....he gets a cake. Is this making sense now?

What is the artistic reason to not make the cake?
I'm sorry if it's been explained and I don't remember.

It's not an "artistic" reason. The issue is that art = speech (not debatable). the government can't compel speech. It can't punish you for not engaging in certain speech. Therefore it cannot compel art. And it can't punish you for not producing certain art.

In this case the artist believes that producing the art (the speech) is sinful and against his religious beliefs. Making a CUSTOM wedding cake means you're participating in the ceremony....which is a sin.

Christian morals include a policy of forgiveness, reserving judgement for the Lord, turning the other cheek, being a good Samaritan.

There is also a policy against sinning yourself. The baker doesn't care if you're gay. He doesn't care if you go get married. He just doesn't want to be part of it. That's all.


If it helps clarify, this same baker also refuses to make Halloween cakes, for everyone. He believes celebrating Halloween is a sin. So he doesn't celebrate it. And he won't help you celebrate it. For the exact same reason he won't help you celebrate your gay wedding.

Please tell me specifically if there is still anything you don't understand

[oskar]

I have to say I'm disappointed you guys are letting yourself get sidetracked into this stupid argument. MAGA went down so hard it will take a miracle of biblical proportions for R's to retake the house senate or presidency for the next 8 years. Trump will get dragged out in 5 days. A 9/11's worth of americans is dying every single day as a direct result of MAGA politics. Trump might actually get convicted in the senate and could conceivably manage to take down his family business for no other reason than being such a moron.

LFDO Nana wants to talk about cake. You don't have to oblige.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Please tell me specifically if there is still anything you don't understand

I don't understand why you think appeals to authority matter when I'm telling you my opinion.

I don't understand why you think that just because you want to argue with someone means they want to learn from you;
I don't understand why someone who clearly has a strong personal motivation to persuade people is so miserably bad at it.

[Mr.Banana]

I don't understand why you think appeals to authority matter when I'm telling you my opinion.

I don't understand why you think categorizing an argument as an "appeal to authority" makes it invalid. But if it makes you feel better, forget the SCOTUS. Everything the SCOTUS concluded is *also* my opinion. So now we're just guys sharing opinions.

I don't understand why you think that just because you want to argue with someone means they want to learn from you;

Why wouldn't you want to learn? From anyone? Anytime that you can? Don't you work in education? Are you saying your mind is closed off just because you have a problem with me personally? You think you're right and I'm wrong because you're a better person? Help me understand what you just said there.

I don't understand why someone who clearly has a strong personal motivation to persuade people is so miserably bad at it.

Well I'll give credit where credit is due. I'm up against a master. It's really hard to combat the "Nyah nyah leviticus" argument. That was a real back-breaker.

But back to two guys just sharing opinions.....

We share one opinion....I'm too lazy to scroll up and find the quote, so this is paraphrased from memory. You have a problem with people doing things that foment animosity and divide our culture. Something like that. I too share this opinion. I also have the opinion that YOU are one of those people.

I'm hoping you'll have an open mind here and try to consider that all the baker wants to do is NOT sin. He will happily sell any other cake for any other occasion to anyone from any walk of life. He'll treat every one of his customers with the dignity and respect every human deserves and that every potential customer should expect. He just doesn't want to be a part of a sin. So no gay wedding cakes, and no halloween cakes. He probably won't make a cake for Satan's birthday. I don't know how he feels about the Hell's Angels. That could be a headscratcher.

You see, if you close your mind off to the nuance here, and that nuance turns out to be valid, then YOU are the one fostering hate and division. Calling someone a bigoted asshole (or whatever similar phrasing you used) when he truly has no hate in his heart, and he is just trying his best to live a christian life....is NOT going to help unify the country.

And will you PLEASE tell me your opinion on whether a a painter should be allowed to deny a commission for a piece of art depicting Mohamed? And if so, how is that different than the Christian baker?