*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

[OngBonga]

Compare body counts.

If we're talking about Putin vs any western leader here, ok. If we're talking about Russia vs USA/UK/France in the last 25 years, then I'm not so sure you're making the point you think you're making here. Not that you'll get reliable enough body counts to make a fair comparison, but a shit load of people died in Iraq and Afghanistan due to our intervention. And according to NATO, the body count from this invasion is much higher for the Russians, at 30-40k compared to 2-4k for Ukraine. Pinch of salt, obviously.

Frankly, it comes across as being a Putin apologist, despite your frequent denials thereof.

My issue is that we judge others when we're not in a position to be judging. You can call that being an apologist of you like, but it's not the way I see it.

I would like nothing more than to see the Russians get rid of Putin. I would like to see the Russian people take control of their country. Are those the words of a Putin apologist?

What I'd also like to see is NATO respecting the legitimate security concerns of Russia. I know that NATO are not going to invade Russia, that's not what I mean by security concerns. What NATO expansion does is cause Russia to invest more in their military, with a build up on the western front. It's causes an arms race. If there are missile systems too close to Russia, then they will want missile systems that make USA feel uncomfortable. NATO expansion causes a deterioration of global security.

Of course, Russian invasions also cause a deterioration of global security. It's a vicious circle. NATO expand, Russia responds, more countries want to join NATO, Russia feel even more isolated and vulnerable, where does this end? The way it's going, it seems like world war is inevitable. NATO are playing their part in this. This is the problem that military alliances cause. I'd feel a lot more safe if the UK were not a NATO member and were instead geopolitically neutral. As it is, we're one of the first that will get hit if this turns into a world war. And we're not the size of Russia, we get wiped off the map if this goes nuclear.

I think you are presenting yourself in such a way that it feels like you're excusing or justifying the mass murder of political opponents for personal gain.

Then you're failing to understand why this is an issue for me. Perhaps that last paragraph will help.

There is no excusing or justifying the mass murder of political opponents. But let's also be clear... that's none of our business. This is happening all over the world, so it's not like this is our problem with Russia. Our problem with Russia is we don't want to allow them to be as strong as NATO. We want NATO to be the dominant global military force. That's the status quo and we want to maintain it at all costs.

Putin is attempting a genocide of Ukrainian people.

This is hyperbole. Genocide is not a casual word. Killing a lot of people is not genocide. Attempting to kill a national, ethnic, racial or religious group within a country, that's genocide. What was happening in Kosovo was genocide. What is happening in Ukraine is not. Russia are attempting to force Ukraine's capitulation, they are not killing people simply for being Ukrainian.

If and when this does become a matter of genocide, that's a game changer. That's when this does become a matter of serious global interest, and probably means world war. We didn't stand by and watch Muslims getting slaughtered in Kosovo, we intervened and caused the collapse of the Serbian government, and ultimately brought Slobodon Milosovic and others to an international court. We would likely attempt the same if what is happening in Ukraine becomes, without doubt, a genocide.

He's not trying to liberate anyone. He's not trying to end Nazi values in Ukraine.

I know. He's trying to enforce his political will on Ukraine. That's his intent. If his intent was to kill Ukrainians for no reason other than being Ukrainian, that's genocide. If you have evidence that this is what is happening, do share. Leaving a city in ruins is not evidence enough.

[Poopadoop]

If we're talking about Putin vs any western leader here, ok. If we're talking about Russia vs USA/UK/France in the last 25 years, then I'm not so sure you're making the point you think you're making here.

France???

My issue is that we judge others when we're not in a position to be judging. You can call that being an apologist of you like, but it's not the way I see it.

If this forum were made up of Tony Blair, GW Bush, and Putin, you might have a point. None of us here have done or sanctioned anything like aggressive war afaik. So using the word "we" here to describe "us" is making "you" look disingenuous.

What I'd also like to see is NATO respecting the legitimate security concerns of Russia. I know that NATO are not going to invade Russia, that's not what I mean by security concerns. What NATO expansion does is cause Russia to invest more in their military, with a build up on the western front. It's causes an arms race. If there are missile systems too close to Russia, then they will want missile systems that make USA feel uncomfortable. NATO expansion causes a deterioration of global security.

You're missing the point of what NATO means to Europe. Forget the US for now. The reason European countries are in NATO is because Russia. Russia invading a neighboring country every few years just makes NATO more attractive to everyone who isn't Russia.

You want NATO to respect Russia's security concerns when Russia isn't respecting anyone else's security concerns. Let Russia be peaceful for 25 years and then we can talk. Right now, NATO has the security concerns of Poland, Finland, Sweden, Romania, the Baltics, Turkey, etc.. to think about. Why should Russia get special treatment? Because they keep attacking other countries? That's not how it works unless you're Neville Chamberlain.

Of course, Russian invasions also cause a deterioration of global security. It's a vicious circle. NATO expand, Russia responds, more countries want to join NATO, Russia feel even more isolated and vulnerable, where does this end?

It ends when Russia finally gets the message war is not a viable option for them.

Also, despite protestations to the contrary, you keep doing the Putin apologist thing (bolded). Russia is not a passive player in this, responding only to NATO's moves. You understand the difference between aggressive war and joining a defensive pact...

The way it's going, it seems like world war is inevitable.

If by "world" you mean NATO v. Russia, I doubt it. That war would be very one-sided. Russia is struggling to take over Ukraine, how are they going to fight NATO?

NATO are playing their part in this.

Again, blaming a defensive alliance for another country starting wars. Just stop and think about what you're saying.

This is the problem that military alliances cause. I'd feel a lot more safe if the UK were not a NATO member and were instead geopolitically neutral. As it is, we're one of the first that will get hit if this turns into a world war. And we're not the size of Russia, we get wiped off the map if this goes nuclear.

Yeah, let's make ourselves weaker because that will make it less likely other countries will attack us.

Our problem with Russia is we don't want to allow them to be as strong as NATO. We want NATO to be the dominant global military force. That's the status quo and we want to maintain it at all costs.

No, our problem is they keep invading other countries and killing people. They'll never be as powerful as NATO, that's not even an issue.

This is hyperbole. Genocide is not a casual word. Killing a lot of people is not genocide.

I agree, but there are other war crimes that aren't genocide. He's certainly been committing those.