*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

[Poopadoop]

You've taken all the worst parts of what is and criticized them as parts of what I've proposed, only I never did propose them.

You made some arguments for why you think mandatory service is a good thing. I gave some counterarguments. I don't see where I'm putting words in your mouth anywhere.

For example, the ranks of a mandatory service armed forces will skew far closer to the center as compared to the rightward/nationalistic skew of a volunteer only military. I do concede that it's possible that while the military would be far less right leaning/nationalistic/conservative/whatever, society as a whole may to one degree or another lean moreso. I don't think that this is a given, but if it is the case, I think the more cohesive society is likely a fair trade off.

Yeah maybe. But if creating a more cohesive society is one of the goals, you could make joining the Boy Scouts mandatory and achieve the same thing at a younger age with much less cost.

Regarding this resulting in a bloated rank (my math lands at 4-8m. The annual births 18 years ago were right around 4m, so depending on 1 or 2 years service..),

You're right; I goofed there. There's about 10m males and 10m females ages 15-19 in 2019. So 20m. If two of those five years are in m.s., that's 8m. If one is, it's 4m. Either still seems high though (to me). Like I said, there's very little chance the US is going to be under threat of imminent invasion and suddenly be happy they have 4-8m people ready to fight and millions more in reserve. You already have the most OP military in the world, why does it need to be even more OP?

the mission can expand, everyone can have basic military training, but a large percent of conscripts can serve their mandatory years doing hearts and minds kind of work here at home as well as abroad.

I knew a guy who grew up in Germany during the 80s when they had mandatory service. He chose the conscientious objector option instead, which involved helping out in care homes, etc. That seems more beneficial to society than learning how to kill people.

Anyways, I could go on, but I'm sure if you cared and were open to a change of mind, you could go back to your post and pick your own low hanging fruit.

I'm open to a change of mind, but I'm stupid and need the low hanging fruit pointed out to me. Convince me.

[boost]

Either still seems high though (to me). Like I said, there's very little chance the US is going to be under threat of imminent invasion and suddenly be happy they have 4-8m people ready to fight and millions more in reserve. You already have the most OP military in the world, why does it need to be even more OP?

I'm making a leap here, but I feel like this position stems from "we've reached the end of history" thinking.

*Current events have entered the chat*

Following wartimes it is super common to be lulled into complacency. An over powered military can be a bully, and unfortunately that is sometimes how the US armed forces are used, but it can also be a guarantee of peace. Nonetheless, you're right, the US armed forces are already so far ahead of every other nation-- that said, our achilles heal is social cohesion, ergo my complimentary points.

I knew a guy who grew up in Germany during the 80s when they had mandatory service. He chose the conscientious objector option instead, which involved helping out in care homes, etc. That seems more beneficial to society than learning how to kill people.

Pacifism is a bankrupt ideology. Not everyone has to be a grunt on the front lines, hell, that would make for a weaker armed forces. However, no matter how much we wish it to not be the case, there are aggressors on the nation state level, and there is a societal prerogative to counter these aggressors. Conscientiously objecting to a specific conflict/mission is a legitimate stance. Objecting to learning the basics, rendering you useless in all potential conflicts does not hold water.

That said, I think after a basic training and aside from occasional additional training to brush up on and reinforce this basic skillset, yeah, most of the mandatory service members should be doing things like your friend, which further build social cohesion.

I'm open to a change of mind, but I'm stupid and need the low hanging fruit pointed out to me. Convince me.

Thanks for this. That line spilled out of my head, then I almost deleted it cuz it's a pretty pithy note to end on-- but the line made me grin and I just couldn't relegate it to my mental dustbin.

Thanks for letting that one slide and taking my overall message in the much less pithy tone I intended