Quote Originally Posted by mojo
If seeing someone just being in a place causes you to be offended - not them behaving in any way that is threatening or malicious - and you're only explanation for why you're offended is irrational fear on your part, then that's bigotry.
Again, apply this logic to regular men in the women's room and tell me you still stand by this.

Especially when your assumption is that trans = threat to health and/or safety.
Especially when your assumption is that men = threat to health and/or safety.

I'm not trying to belittle you by replying like this. I'm trying to make the point that we already separate people based on these fears you consider to be bigotry. Women don't want men in their toilets. As a society, we understand that and it's not a problem. If a man in a dress makes them feel the same degree of discomfort or even fear, why is this now bigotry when it wasn't before he put the dress on?

Insisting that a person is not some gender because they weren't always that gender is malicious.
Ok it's easy to get lost in gender vs sex in this debate. I'm not insisting anyone is any gender. I don't want a society that insists anyone is any gender. But woman is not a gender. It is a sex. And so when I talk about "gender segregation", that's me using the wrong word. I'm promoting same-sex facilities for women. That, as best I understand it, is what women want.

I agree with your points about gender. It is not binary. If I give the impression I think otherwise, I'm using the wrong word. I'll try not to do that.

It's called a society, ong.
And people are not honest in society.

Your entire argument is predicated on guessing someone's gender by looking at them.
It's not. My entire argument is muddle by me using the word gender when I mean sex.

Do you want people to show a gender ID card in order to use a restroom?
No. I want trans facilities.

I'm not sure you understand the word private. A private club can exclude blacks. The KKK is a private club.
Right, but in the UK these "clubs" are illegal, banned, if you're a member of a banned group you're in a world of shit.

Racism is quite literally illegal in the UK. And it's enforced, if it can be proven.

FWIW, I talked to my gal about this conversation and she doesn't even think it's women who have the most butthurt voices in the conversation. She thinks is a lot of men getting all white-knighty about a non-issue that women don't care about.
There might be an element of truth to this. Certainly this is largely my motivation. Being a white knight isn't really an insult, at least not for me. It's a respect for women's rights.

I know women who feel very differently about it, and they are not people I would describe as bigots. Far from it. Perhaps I'm influenced by these friends. Their concerns tend to be less about genuine trans people who have either transitioned or are in the process of doing so, and more about men who have no intention of transitioning... part time trans people, cross dressers if you like. And it's less about toilets and more about public showers, support groups and sports. Are these concerns legitimate? I certainly sympathise with such concerns. They are motivated by a perceived threat to their safety, or in the case of sports, fairness.

Toilets are an issue because, along with sports, they represent the first real battleground between trans activists and feminists.

She doesn't think it's about women feeling upset or bothered by people who see themselves as women doing woman things.
I would certainly agree here. It's about the threat posed by dishonest people. If it was purely about feminine people doing feminine things then I would agree that is motivated by bigotry.

If we lived in an honest society this really wouldn't be a problem. We don't. Women have fears. Maybe not all women, and maybe these fears are unjustified, but having fears is not bigotry. Not when you live in a society where such fears might have some basis, even if social media might have blown those fears out of proportion.

Bigotry for me is a conscious effort to discriminate, it's motivated by a hatred of a group. I don't think that is a large amount of people. I think most people who want same-sex spaces for women are motivated by fear, not hate. And so the conversation is about if these fears are justified or not.

I wish I could say they weren't justified, but I just don't believe it.