Stacked with 140bbs, my mistake?

[Miffed22001]

b2b network.

ThomasAlm (EUR 314,85 in seat 1)
laihen (EUR 58,32 in seat 2)
_Why_Not_ (EUR 51,90 in seat 4)
Miffosaur (EUR 137,80 in seat 5)
PokerFool$ (EUR 146,08 in seat 6)

Dealer: laihen
Small Blind: _Why_Not_ (0 50)
Big Blind: Miffosaur (1 00)

Dealt to Miffosaur :Qs:

Preflop
PokerFool$ Fold
TomasAlm Fold
laihen Raise (2,00)
_Why_Not_ Call (1,50)
Miffosaur Raise (9,25)
laihen Call (8,25)
_Why_Not_ Call (8,25)

Flop
:Qc: :Js:

_Why_Not_ Check
Miffosaur All-In (127,55)
laihen Fold
_Why_Not_ All-In (41,65)
Miffosaur Payback (85,90)

Good or bad?
Is pushing a mistake?
Does stack size have any impact?
What hands am i realistically against?
Did i make a mistake, or did i force a -ev play from my opponents?
Critique welcome.

[WildBobAA]

Wow...you stuck it in with top pair on a very coordinated board. In particular the push is really bad. You're only getting calls from hands that beat you and there are so many that beat you on that board. This is pretty terrible.

[Miffed22001]

Wow...you stuck it in with top pair on a very coordinated board. In particular the push is really bad. You're only getting calls from hands that beat you and there are so many that beat you on that board. This is pretty terrible.

what hands beat me that call preflop without pushing.
Pushing to me isnt the biggest issue here and ill post the math later to show why...
What is my range on the bb playing like this? Conceviably when i push what do i represent?
Who calls 7bbs on the button that doesnt push that has me beat on that flop?
who then calls 7bbs oop against a 9bb reraise and call?

I forgot to add both players involved in the hand suck awfully

[pokerroomace]

Who won the hand? What did the other guy have?

[Miffed22001]

Who won the hand? What did the other guy have?

ill show that once you tell me whether my play sucks or not
I promise

[martindcx1e]

Who won the hand? What did the other guy have?

it doesn't matter. we should be able to comment on his play w/o knowing the results.

[joshuadzl]

I don't think you're beat by AQ here, and obviously Aces and Kings shouldn't be a concern based on preflop action.

I'm guessing douche bag pushed with Ax suited on the draw or he hit his 99/jj. Thats all I can put them on here. The straight potential is rediculous, unless he had tens and is just gunning for the oesd. I can't see him calling with gapped connectors to your raise.

[mcatdog]

Maybe I just suck at poker because I don't see how this is "terrible" at all. The pot size is $30 and the second biggest stack other than you who saw the flop, has less than $50 behind. With top pair 2nd kicker, that's enough for me to be committed. I'd bet $25 and call a shove, but I don't think there's that big of a difference between that and just shoving.

I've actually noticed that in this particular situation (you have someone covered by a lot, and the pot size is a little bit less than their stack) terrible players are more likely to call you if you just shove, than if you make a normal sized bet. It's like their logic is "I'm not letting this bully push me around, OK I call with my straight draw!"

So basically I think this statement

You're only getting calls from hands that beat you

is completely wrong and I'd be willing to bet that this guy called all-in on a draw.

[martindcx1e]

Wow...you stuck it in with top pair on a very coordinated board. In particular the push is really bad. You're only getting calls from hands that beat you and there are so many that beat you on that board. This is pretty terrible.

what hands beat me that call preflop without pushing.
Pushing to me isnt the biggest issue here and ill post the math later to show why...
What is my range on the bb playing like this? Conceviably when i push what do i represent?
Who calls 7bbs on the button that doesnt push that has me beat on that flop?
who then calls 7bbs oop against a 9bb reraise and call?

I forgot to add both players involved in the hand suck awfully

if they suck royally then they could've easily connected with this board. or are you saying they suck so much as to get it all in there with draws and such?

[Miffed22001]

Wow...you stuck it in with top pair on a very coordinated board. In particular the push is really bad. You're only getting calls from hands that beat you and there are so many that beat you on that board. This is pretty terrible.

what hands beat me that call preflop without pushing.
Pushing to me isnt the biggest issue here and ill post the math later to show why...
What is my range on the bb playing like this? Conceviably when i push what do i represent?
Who calls 7bbs on the button that doesnt push that has me beat on that flop?
who then calls 7bbs oop against a 9bb reraise and call?

I forgot to add both players involved in the hand suck awfully

if they suck royally then they could've easily connected with this board. or are you saying they suck so much as to get it all in there with draws and such?

good comment
actually a bit of both.
Probably what i meant by both players suck is that they make horrible decisions both pre and post flop that make playing poker with them but more so overplaying even marginal positions hard, very +ev for me, but swingy.

[WildBobAA]

How horribly do they suck? By "sucking horribly" i'm thinking they would see a flop with KT or QJ even with the PF action.

[Miffed22001]

Maybe I just suck at poker because I don't see how this is "terrible" at all. The pot size is $30 and the second biggest stack other than you who saw the flop, has less than $50 behind. With top pair 2nd kicker, that's enough for me to be committed. I'd bet $25 and call a shove, but I don't think there's that big of a difference between that and just shoving.

I've actually noticed that in this particular situation (you have someone covered by a lot, and the pot size is a little bit less than their stack) terrible players are more likely to call you if you just shove, than if you make a normal sized bet. It's like their logic is "I'm not letting this bully push me around, OK I call with my straight draw!"

So basically I think this statement
Quote:
You're only getting calls from hands that beat you

is completely wrong and I'd be willing to bet that this guy called all-in on a draw.

I like this. Exactly my thought patterns.

How horribly do they suck? By "sucking horribly" i'm thinking they would see a flop with KT or QJ even with the PF action.

Apart from on party, players who suck hard at 100nl would struggle to call 9bbs with QJ.
Still, valid point.

[Warpe]

How horribly do they suck? By "sucking horribly" i'm thinking they would see a flop with KT or QJ even with the PF action.

...and what's your table image...if you're this aggro with KQo?

[WildBobAA]

Well, what do you put them on?

[Miffed22001]

My table image is Tagg, this is the first blind defense of any sort i have made.
Miniraise on button is Ax weak kicker or a pp. If this flop is raggedy i play this hand a whole lot different. As it stands opp calling 7bbs reraise tells me he has a pp. On the board id have expected QQ JJ TT to push preflop anyway (maybe not JJ i admit, and im a favouite against TT anyway who only has 7 outs). And against most tx's im a favourite except Txc.
Conceivably button has 99, but from what i know of him a 5-6bbs raise would have been made with 99 as he tried to protect preflop. Sb is a totally donkey and as someone noted probably called 7bbs into a 18bbs pot at 2.5 to 1 with any ace or sooted junk fishing.

[WildBobAA]

This is just a weird hand.

[Miffed22001]

As a more general question before i post the result what is my preflop range here (if you assume i havent defended my blind at all yet and im TAGG) and what do you expect the button and sb to have in order to call the reraise?
In other words, put button and sb on hands.

[LimpinAintEZ]

I've actually noticed that in this particular situation (you have someone covered by a lot, and the pot size is a little bit less than their stack) terrible players are more likely to call you if you just shove, than if you make a normal sized bet. It's like their logic is "I'm not letting this bully push me around, OK I call with my straight draw!"

So basically I think this statement

You're only getting calls from hands that beat you

is completely wrong and I'd be willing to bet that this guy called all-in on a draw.[/quote]

This is a highly coordinated board - You have a gut shot and backdoor flush with top pair, good kicker - I don't like the play - I won't say it sucks because there are some good reasons that the others are making - My thinking here is if the players are so bad (like you said, Godawful bad...?) then why not wait until an even better situation...? From what I have read the Euro players love to gamble, so why not make the same push when your hand is even better...? Like you hit a set, or have the nut draw - I just think there are better situations to go for, especially if your against very loose players -

[Miffed22001]

I've actually noticed that in this particular situation (you have someone covered by a lot, and the pot size is a little bit less than their stack) terrible players are more likely to call you if you just shove, than if you make a normal sized bet. It's like their logic is "I'm not letting this bully push me around, OK I call with my straight draw!"

So basically I think this statement
You're only getting calls from hands that beat you
is completely wrong and I'd be willing to bet that this guy called all-in on a draw

This is a highly coordinated board - You have a gut shot and backdoor flush with top pair, good kicker - I don't like the play - I won't say it sucks because there are some good reasons that the others are making - My thinking here is if the players are so bad (like you said, Godawful bad...?) then why not wait until an even better situation...? From what I have read the Euro players love to gamble, so why not make the same push when your hand is even better...? Like you hit a set, or have the nut draw - I just think there are better situations to go for, especially if your against very loose players -

partially agree

If i have an edge and push it hard even if its only 5to20% isnt that +ev for me to make these guys gambOOL ?

Id argue it is.

[samsonite2100]

Yes, but the point Limping's making--which I think is valid--is that if these players are really terrible and willing to go allin in situations where you're up 25%, then pushing a +5% edge is actually -ev in the overall metagame.

[LimpinAintEZ]

If i have an edge and push it hard even if its only 5to20% isnt that +ev for me to make these guys gambOOL ?

Well this is the thing, especially with this hand - Where is your edge? Top pair good kicker with the 2nd nut flush (backdoor draw) and a gut shot (but the same 10 makes A,K the nut straight) - You could be up against a made straight already or the nut flush draw - And that isn't even counting possible sets - Or 2 pair - I just think there are 2 many hands against you to make a push worthwhile - I say it's better to BE pushing, instead of calling a push (you wouldn't call a push with this hand, would you?) but neither one makes sense for me - there are a lot better spots to get your money in with

[Miffed22001]

Ok
Turn 6clubs (oh noes!)
River 3clubs (suckyouty?)

Opp shows AJclubs.
Busted.

Why did i play my hand like this and why do i think its right?
1. Preflop
I havent defended my blind at all yet before this hand, a 9bbs reraise says 'get the hell outta my pot' and it stinks of AA/KK/QQ (perhaps of a steal, which in fact it was) but you only call the reraise if you have implied odds to do so. Id suggst a range is any pp, but AA/KK/QQ perhaps also JJ/TT would have reraised or pushed preflop against my reraise here. As it stands, the button miniraise equals either a weak ace or a pp and as i noted i expected 77+ to be defended by a 4-6bbs raise anyway, in which case i wouldnt have played my blind.
2. Post flop
Firstly, no ace. That means im pretty sure my hand is the best. Any hand with the exception of QQ/JJ/99 that called preflop here did so at a long term loss imo. If opp shows QJ or KT i will laugh my tits off and know im making a shit load off the opp that calls a 9bbs reraise with eitehr of those hands. Period. I like people who want to play THAT sort of poker. They make me money.
But, as noted i think QQ/JJ push preflop so we can rule those out. Therefore i expect to ony be scared of 99 and a set here. Add to that the possibility of a pair and flush draw or Txclubs specifically are the only other hands that could have me smoked. Again, id argue in this pot if either of those hands are there its a long term losing play and i will benefit. So again, id be happy if opps show those hands. TT is a dog here against me with only 7 outs.
3. Pushing
Why? WildbobAA missed mcatdog's exellent point. Once the flop comes both opps have 40-50 behind with a 30~ flop pot. Therefore if i pot this flop i am committed to calling any turn bet as even if its a nightmare club i will be calling 20 into a sixty or perhaps 90 pot with the king of clubs and probably 7odd outs. In other words, with stack sizes i cant fold my hand. Therefore i simply push to save me the problem on later streets. Id have bet the pot and called a push too anyway. I simply decided that the range of hands that might want to gambOOl here were doing it for stacks because stack sizes demanded it.
4. The result
sb donk called. As it happens i was a .5% dog on the flop to win the hand. So we might ask my play was -ev as over the long run i lose money. Well is it really?
Consider my range preflop, stop looking at the board, and put everyone on a range. Thats why i said these guys sucked. Against a first blind defence from a tagg, where i didnt just bet $6into a $5 pot, i bet $9 into a $5 pot (big overbet for steal reasons but also becasue when i have a monster here aginst these donks i will overbet the same way to get them committed) sb calls 7bbs into a 18bbs pot at 2.5 to 1 with AJs. Losing long term play imo. I wouldnt lose a lot if i held QQ/KK here if an ace flopped. However, if a jack flops or an ace flops and i can beat a pair i guarentee sb loses his stack on all occasions. Therefore in a very real sense, sbs decision is just plain horrible.
As it turns out his flop call is good, but most times he is a 60/40 50/50 here and the only reason he called is BECAUSE HE HAD A FLUSH DRAW! not because he had any idea of how to think this hand out.
Therefore, my play is very defendable and i will continue to do it. I think sb is now my personal ATM, what do you think?

[joshuadzl]

If i have an edge and push it hard even if its only 5to20% isnt that +ev for me to make these guys gambOOL ?

Well this is the thing, especially with this hand - Where is your edge? Top pair good kicker with the 2nd nut flush (backdoor draw) and a gut shot (but the same 10 makes A,K the nut straight) - You could be up against a made straight already or the nut flush draw - And that isn't even counting possible sets - Or 2 pair - I just think there are 2 many hands against you to make a push worthwhile - I say it's better to BE pushing, instead of calling a push (you wouldn't call a push with this hand, would you?) but neither one makes sense for me - there are a lot better spots to get your money in with

What ranges are you putting your opponents on here? Do you really feel AK is calling a standard raise and not reraising preflop? And is AK calling here drawing to a ten?

Something I really like about this hand is in a 3 way pot with these stacks behind, is if hero makes a bet that is substantial, say 3/4 pot (~$18) and said player calls, what makes villian fold on the turn? What card hits that makes Miffed dump this hand? That puts a $56 pot on the turn leaving Villian with only $25 behind. If Villian thinks he is good on the flop and calls, most of the time all of his money is going in on the turn. Is miffed only folding is the flush hits?

I don't feel there is any way with the draws out there that Miff could of made a better bet here. He feels his opponents are weak and hes playing that. I like this hand.

[Miffed22001]

Yes, but the point Limping's making--which I think is valid--is that if these players are really terrible and willing to go allin in situations where you're up 25%, then pushing a +5% edge is actually -ev in the overall metagame.

If these guys sit at a poker table with me for 2hrs and play like this i will push all and any edge extra hard becasue i know they suck. Yes i might only need one set to stack either with top pair, but i like to play better than that and i like to push the boundaries where i can create them against horrible players.

Well this is the thing, especially with this hand - Where is your edge?

Preflop. calling a 9bbs reraise with a hand dominated to hell by my range (think beyond my cards for a moment and think long term)
Post flop. Ive already forced one mistake, now i commit a marginal error of .5%. While the price involved is bigger, i think calling 7bbs preflop like sb did = bigger gain for me than the .5% error i made on the flop.
Add to that i guarentee opp loses his stack if i can beat any ace that flops or his jack. he'd go bust on either of those hands making me lots of cash.

[LimpinAintEZ]

"If these guys sit at a poker table with me for 2hrs and play like this i will push all and any edge extra hard becasue i know they suck."

I guess I just don't think this way - When I play against people that suck, I don't push small edges simply because i KNOW they will call me when i've got a real edge -

"Preflop. calling a 9bbs reraise with a hand dominated to hell by my range (think beyond my cards for a moment and think long term) "

Players that suck will call that all day long with AJ suited - AJs is like Gold to a fish - Your range, IMO, is giving them too much credit - People limp with QQ and JJ all the time in NL trying to trap people - Them calling here may be a mistake, but I expect them to make that call in the situation described (sucky players and they are Euro = gamblers)

"Add to that i guarentee opp loses his stack if i can beat any ace that flops or his jack. he'd go bust on either of those hands making me lots of cash"

the key word is If - He flops 2nd pair and nut flush draw, and to most players that suck, hes got a MONSTER - so he's going broke with it - You are right on the stack sizes - They are commited if they call any pot sized bet, so going AI does give you a real chance to win (with either them folding or Q's holding up) -

I know we all love playing against players like this - The range of hands, for a short stack gambler, could be anything face and suited - 9xBB bet does scream get out of my pot - does that mean bad players are going to give you credit? No - It means they will give you credit if they don't flop something....I'm trying to see it w/out the cards - In the stacks issue, put it in context of a 10NL game - players there will go to the River with AJs - Players will go to the river with 2nd pair - Bad players play all sorts of weird ways....a 9xBB raise doesn't mean that much to bad players - remember they don't THINK about what your holding - they see 2 big sooted face cards and you know what? they want to see flops - So if your in a pot with 2 bad players, stack them when you've got the goods - Your hand, this board...not the goods -

[salsa4ever]

I can't fault villain's call on the flop

a pair + flush draw *is* a monster. I estimate he's at 40% to win against the range I put you on, that being... AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/AK/AQ/KQ. Given the dead money in the pot I would have to call. (of course villain probably didn't call using that line of thought "OMG I HAVE A FLUSH DRAW" and besides, I'd normally just fold pre flop but this is 5 handed and I don't have enough experience or reads to say for sure what I would do.)

I got no problem with your push. I'd do the same thing given the effective stack sizes. Nothing wrong here getting it all in with 49.5% pot equity with the dead money in the pot. And you were just unlucky that you ran into as good a hand as you did. NH. Keep doing what you're doing

[WhooFleuryScores]

Wow.

That being said if I have 140BB and the other big stack has raised me 9xBB I am only playing with AA/KK/AKs.There are just too many ways for me to lose my hard earned cheddar on a hand that could be dominated.

That being said......if I was suited I push the flop.Unfortunatly villain had the nut flush draw and crippled you.Essentially you got Anakin-ed as I call it(lost your left arm,both legs,and got dumped on the hillside).

This is why I often leave a table after a few more orbits when I manage to work up 150BB or more......because at that point many of the fish are already gone and most of the players will be looking to trap me back and dive into my chips.No way I let them touch any;I treat my hard earned chips like chicks picked up at a party.They belong to me and me.