When should you tip a waiter or waitress?

[spoonitnow]

Assume that you will never eat in this location or have this waiter or waitress again, and assume that the tip size will be 15-20%.

[a500lbgorilla]

If I feel guilty for being waited on, if I want to imperceptibly increase my chances of sleeping with the waitress, if I've been given a candy with the bill and therefore owe something back, or how interested I am in impressing people with how quickly I can calculate a 15% tip.

Reasons abound.

[JL]

My answer might change based on where the restaurant is. Servers here get paid at least minimum wage ($9 or more per hour).

[MadMojoMonkey]

[x] for all but offensive service

If you're in America, and you sit down to eat, or you have food delivered to you, you should tip. These jobs generally pay minimum wage or less, and the workers who take these jobs are relying on tips as part of their wage.

UNLESS: The server/delivery person has been grossly negligent in their roll of customer servant. Bad/cold/late food is probably not their fault, and punishing them by docking their wages for something they can't control is being petty.

IN WHICH CASE: If you decide to NOT tip, you should have a good reason, that the manager should want (and need) to hear in order to ensure positive customer experiences in the future. I mean, if you're offended enough to avoid adding a measly ~$5 to your bill, then the offense must be noteworthy, right?

If the service is REALLY terrible, you can tip $0.01 just to make your point to the server.

[spoonitnow]

If you're in America, and you sit down to eat, or you have food delivered to you, you should tip.

Tipping everyone regardless of the level of service defeats the point of the tipping system and brings down the overall level of service for everyone.

[a500lbgorilla]

Tipping everyone regardless of the level of service defeats the point of the tipping system and brings down the overall level of service for everyone.

Managers and Owners have no mechanism to keep the standards of service high other than customer feedback through tipping?

[spoonitnow]

Managers and Owners have no mechanism to keep the standards of service high other than customer feedback through tipping?

I'm personally in favor of removing tipping completely and relying on managers and owners like you've mentioned. I think that this would be a better system than allowing customers to influence it with the size of their tips since tip sizes are usually based on a wide range of things instead of the level of service (much like you indicated with your earlier post).

[a500lbgorilla]

I'm personally in favor of removing tipping completely and relying on managers and owners like you've mentioned. I think that this would be a better system than allowing customers to influence it with the size of their tips since tip sizes are usually based on a wide range of things instead of the level of service (much like you indicated with your earlier post).

I see what you're saying. If the customers seek out good services and tips are dropped, wages should rise to find people willing to deliver good service to customers. Or wages for managers will rise to see who can best motivate their work staff to achieve the standard.

But if wages rise for an industry with a low bar for entry like food service, there will be more competition for those good wages. And wages will drop.

Then people will be forced to choose between working hard for low pay or working elsewhere for low pay.

Until someone comes up with the notion to subsidize their payroll even further on the generosity of others and institutes tipping.

With the incentive to deliver good service, high skill surplus workers compete for these higher paying positions, and the restaurant is full of high quality staff and is likely to succeed.

Other high wage restaurants see an opportunity to subsidize their payrolls on the rubes and move towards lower pay, tipping-focused models. Innovation through bill-inflation.

Someone really needs to find a way to turn work in the food service industry into a personal investment. A career path kind of thing.

edit: If you could cover the costs of higher education through hard work in the food service industry, we'd have this problem licked!

[kiwiMark]

I'm personally in favor of removing tipping completely and relying on managers and owners like you've mentioned. I think that this would be a better system than allowing customers to influence it with the size of their tips since tip sizes are usually based on a wide range of things instead of the level of service (much like you indicated with your earlier post).

Seems to work perfectly fine in NZ (not tipping as a pretty much standard, I mean) and has the added bonus that any rapport with the wait staff doesn't feel so much like using an escort service.

[a500lbgorilla]

Besides, if I have many dollars and the waitress has few, a dollar is worth more in her pocket than it is in mine. Tipping is wealth generating.

[swiggidy]

Besides, if I have many dollars and the waitress has few, a dollar is worth more in her pocket than it is in mine. Tipping is wealth generating.

This thought always crosses my mind whenI'm debating the last dollar or two and always ends up in favor of the waitress.

I hate the 20% "rule" because you can get fantastic service at a diner with $8 meals, but mediocre service at a fancy restaurant with $20 meals. It also gets misused for discount situations (e.g. happy hour)

[MadMojoMonkey]

Only if you tip the same amount for all levels of service.

[Renton]

Assume that you will never eat in this location or have this waiter or waitress again, and assume that the tip size will be 15-20%.

The assumptions suck and the question sucks.

My answer might change based on where the restaurant is. Servers here get paid at least minimum wage ($9 or more per hour).

If you're in America, and you sit down to eat, or you have food delivered to you, you should tip. These jobs generally pay minimum wage or less, and the workers who take these jobs are relying on tips as part of their wage.

This is typical misguided Libby McLibberson logic. The salary of the server is roughly irrelevant to the question. The entire point of tipping is to incentivize good service and penalize bad service. Those incentives and checks only exist if there's a realistic threat of not receiving a tip, and if tip amounts are elastic to service quality. Paying the server a wage on top of the tips further dulls the benefits of a tipping system.

Also, it is simply not incumbent on the restaurant patron to make sure social justice is served in the case of a poorly paid waiter. Your giving him a pity tip helps him in the present but ultimately fucks up the restaurant economy because the employer gets to turn around and put your pity tip into his projections for what is the minimum he can pay his staff.

I'm personally in favor of removing tipping completely and relying on managers and owners like you've mentioned. I think that this would be a better system than allowing customers to influence it with the size of their tips since tip sizes are usually based on a wide range of things instead of the level of service (much like you indicated with your earlier post).

Nah, dude. Leave the United States and see what the service is like in cultures that don't tip like we do.

[Renton]

As for me, in America I tip probably about 95% of the time, for amounts that are highly elastic to serving quality, usually for a higher amount than the average patron. That is less of a reflection of my generosity and more of a reflection of how amazing service is in America. In Asia I tip substantially less substantially less of the time because expectations are lower and service is far worse.

[bikes]

As for me, in America I tip probably about 95% of the time, for amounts that are highly elastic to serving quality, usually for a higher amount than the average patron. That is less of a reflection of my generosity and more of a reflection of how amazing service is in America. In Asia I tip substantially less substantially less of the time because expectations are lower and service is far worse.

This.

USA
20% every time unless you do something to truly piss me off which has only happened once life time.

the time in question being bringing me my soda when she knew the soda machine was broken and that my soda would taste like water and remarking "oh the soda machine's broken that's why it's like that" and then bringing me my chicken fingers really cold. not like oh it's been a few mins out of the heat lamp but try like 20 mins fucking late cold.


Asia barring Singapore.
The only people I tipped reasonably well were my food delivery people who brought my delivery in the nastiest of weather and at one particular bar where my Stella glass was never empty.

[BennyLaRue]

This is the trolliest of a series of trolly topics from you, Spoon. We just did this.

[Hawk]

Haven't we had tipping debates about 19 times already?

[boost]

I think the tipping system is horrible. However I think you're a scumbag if you don't tip as a protest to the system. If you want to protest the tipping system, then avoid giving your patronage to establishments that employ tipped positions as much as possible. This doesn't even limit your ability enjoy the food from the vast majority of restaurants, as you can just get take-out.

[Renton]

I think the tipping system is horrible.

I vehemently disagree but admittedly you are a lot closer to that industry than me. Could you please elaborate?

[rong]

Would that be where you met me?

[ISillyDurrrAK]

I won't be original, for good service, lol

[ISillyDurrrAK]

[TeUnit]

15% is standard and unless they really messed up its the right amt

[rong]

10% is standard in the UK. More than that requires something special.

[kiwiMark]

10% is standard in the UK.

but only at like a real sit-down restaurant, right?

[rong]

Lol no 10% is standard

[kiwiMark]

Lol no 10% is standard

What does that mean? should I be tipping the delivery boy? taxi driver? When I asked around a tiny bit when I got here I was told to only tip in a (not fast food) restaruant, but I don't wanna be a cunt.

[rong]

What does that mean? should I be tipping the delivery boy? taxi driver? When I asked around a tiny bit when I got here I was told to only tip in a (not fast food) restaruant, but I don't wanna be a cunt.

Restaurant - 10% on average, +/- depending on service. This is the norm except in fancy places where maybe 15% is more standard.
Taxis - I rarely tip as they are so expensive anyway, but some areas are more reasonably priced in which case I'll round uo to the nearest quid or maybe the nearest note on a bigger fare if I like the guy but not as standard. However some people tip taxis as standard.
Delivery guy - not tipped as standard, but I was a pizza delivery guy while at university and I know how much the tip is appreciated so I'll typically round up to the nearest quid. I would say 1 in 5 households would tip delivery guys.

[d0zer]

such a busto issue to be passionate about imo

[Renton]

such a busto issue to be passionate about imo

I think tipping is primarily responsible for how awesome service is in america compared to the rest of the world. Different tipping policy and culture. And it doesn't only apply to waiters and waitresses.

I know its not important to non poker players, but I think one of the key factors in a successful poker room is allowing dealers to keep their own tips. The game I play at has terrible dealers 1) because they get paid like 80 dollars a month and have to share their tips with the entire floor including baccarat etc, and 2) because people here don't really tip to begin with.

[kiwiMark]

I think tipping is primarily responsible for how awesome service is in america compared to the rest of the world. Different tipping policy and culture. And it doesn't only apply to waiters and waitresses.

I know its not important to non poker players, but I think one of the key factors in a successful poker room is allowing dealers to keep their own tips. The game I play at has terrible dealers 1) because they get paid like 80 dollars a month and have to share their tips with the entire floor including baccarat etc, and 2) because people here don't really tip to begin with.

thailand != rest of world

[jackvance]

This is missing the "never" option for europeans.

[eugmac]

germany isn't really a tipping culture, and when there is tip it gets pooled together so there's less competition among the servers, and they get paid afaik a better wage to begin with. the service is absolutely atrocious.

[Renton]

Well I've read about other countries and it seems to be a similar trend of poor service in cultures that don't tip as much.

[kiwiMark]

interesting, neither of the two last comments fit with my experience

[eugmac]

interesting, neither of the two last comments fit with my experience

you also never visited berlin! it might really be a berlin-specific thing I talked about. berliner schnauze and so on. but i still really don't think germans put so much effort into service as a whole, from rude waitresses to lazy-ass mail carriers. maybe it's totally different in other towns - i was shocked at how friendly müncheners are, so maybe the service is also friendlier there and so on.

[Renton]

well isn't the minimum wage like 16 dollars an hour in soviet new zealand?

[kiwiMark]

well isn't the minimum wage like 16 dollars an hour in soviet new zealand?

Works out to like $10.50US before tax.

I thought the choice we're talking about is a low wage+tips vs a higher wage though, if we're talking a low wage+tips vs that same wage and no tips then that's something different.

I don't feel like I noticed huge differences in service in New Zealand and Germany (although I disagree that the latter doesn't have a tipping culture, coming from somewhere where I never ever tip) and the US, although I've only spent a very very short amount of time in the US as a tourist.
In Holland I found service to be exceptional in Amsterdam and on average shittier than I'm familiar with in Rotterdam, although to be fair I guess I was forcing them to speak English since I can't speak Dutch and I know that that understandably makes some people uncomfortable or embarrassed and for some people irritability is then the go-to response/emotion.

There were maybe one or two exceptions to this in the US where the waiter would be over the top plastic friendly - friendly's not even right, but enthusiastic (loud?) I guess - but for me, while it's clearly better than him being shitty with me or rude, I don't really rate obvious artificialness/pandering like that above more genuine but more neutral politeness - maybe that's just me though, but it doesn't make my experience in the restaurant nicer or more comfortable, and in fact leans towards the opposite direction.

[eugmac]

Renton, I think the example that destroys your theory totally is Japan. No tipping ever anywhere, but they really stick to the mantra of "customer is king".

[rong]

American enthusiasm is unlike any real human behavior in the rest of the world and I don't like it.

[kiwiMark]

American enthusiasm is unlike any real human behavior in the rest of the world and I don't like it.

Thank you. And cheers for the clarification on where/when to tip etc., that all makes sense

[eugmac]

American enthusiasm is unlike any real human behavior in the rest of the world and I don't like it.

well, i'm of japanese background but it creeps the hell out of me when i walk into KFC and every employee bows and shouts "irashaimaseeeee" ("welcome!!!") at me. but it's a bit different. i also hate the typical north american superficialness.

[eugmac]

ya germany being a non-tipping culture was hyperbole sorry, but it's much less expected here and less surprising/rude when somebody doesn't leave a tip after a meal, even though it's pretty normal to say round up the bill to the nearest round number. also goes for hair dressers and taxi drivers.

[kiwiMark]

ya germany being a non-tipping culture was hyperbole sorry, but it's much less expected here and less surprising/rude when somebody doesn't leave a tip after a meal, even though it's pretty normal to say round up the bill to the nearest round number. also goes for hair dressers and taxi drivers.

Yeah fair play, all a matter of perspective I guess - from my perspective you gotta think tipping is more more expected there and more surprising/rude when somebody doesn't leave a tip (and then America [and Canada, by the sounds of it?]. is even more extreme on top of that), since I'm coming from a background of 0 being the standard.

[eugmac]

then again i'm one of those customers who tends to tell anybody who comes to help me uninvited to leave me alone. i'll ask for help if i need it. same goes for annoying waitresses who come around with their annoying nasaly voices going "how r u guys doing? gooood? is there anything else iI can do for u gaiiis?" every 15 minutes. just please come when i wave in your direction please. japan has these wireless doorbell-type buttons on the table very often, a modern version of ringing a bell to get the server's attention. that system is awesome. i'm just ranting now.

[kiwiMark]

I guess that's the other big problem with trying to compare service in different places like this is we all expect different things (leaving aside we're different people, that there's a the-friendliness-you-show-the-wait-staff to the-friendliness-you-get-back correlation, how your mood was on any day affects how you judge things, etc. etc. etc. etc.).

For me good service would be coming back once shortly after the meal's been served to check that everything's okay, otherwise using your eyes to look at the drinks on the table and that being your indicator of when to pop by of your own accord (where some people might find that bad service that's pushing them to buy extra drinks, I dunno), and doing a good job of looking out for just turned/raised head with eye contact for me otherwise needing attention in the form of more drinks or the bill or whatever.

[pantherhound]

Don't tip in Italy, they don't know the meaning of it over there.

[BennyLaRue]

Don't tip in Italy, they don't know the meaning of it over there.

With the Mafia's cut though, you'd be adding 40% to the bill and it's just too much.

[kiwiMark]

Don't tip in Italy, they rape tourists for every cent with hidden service charges and other charges and tactics like moving you from desirable tables as soon as you've ordered to keep them vacant

fyp

[pantherhound]

fyp

lol nh.

Eating out in Italy (or at least Italian cities) is more often than not a terrible experience food-wise too.

[NightGizmo]

Eating out in Italy (or at least Italian cities) is more often than not a terrible experience food-wise too.

You must be really bad at picking/finding restaurants. I spent 2 weeks in Italy and we did not have a bad meal (most meals were excellent, only a few were just good). Avoid the tourist traps, get recommendations from your hotel concierge (or locals).

[rpm]

i only ever tip taxi drivers here in aus, because they typically make little money working long hours and often get treated like shit by people who suck.

edit: i should add that there is no industry or service i use here for which tipping is standard or even expected. maybe in higher-class restaurants/hotels, i don't know, but i cant see myself ever getting in the door of those joints. anyone who works in gaming (ie croupiers etc) it is illegal to tip

[hellabelly2]

i tip depending on service..... 15 to 20 %

[kiwiMark]

I round up taxi fares back home to the nearest dollar but I never thought of it as tipping (although I guess it clearly is), just the done thing and means nobody has to fuck around with change (only ever use taxis when druuuunk)

[TeUnit]

they will remember if you stiff them on the tip- so if your are planning on going back u should prob tip

[surviva316]

Assume that you will never eat in this location or have this waiter or waitress again, and assume that the tip size will be 15-20%.

For better or for worse (ie: for worse), the US's system is setup so that a 15-20% tip is a built-in price for any situation where you are waited on. As such, I don't ever tip less than 15% (not even sure how often I go that low) unless it's a situation where I would demand to get my money back, which is an extremely extremely extremely rare scenario.

The one time I can think of where I wished to not pay for my service is when our server refused to serve our friend who was in from the Netherlands when he showed his Dutch drivers license, then when his girlfriend's sister drove his American passport over (because, what the fuck, who carries their passport around just to go to a tavern), he was still refused service. This was such an embarrassing fiasco of service that we left immediately with our drinks unfinished, our food mostly uneaten, etc.

I don't go to restaurants to be a connoisseur of service, looking for every excuse to be like, "Sweeeet, looks like I don't need to pay for my dining experience." To be honest, I don't really think that any scenario where service was so palatable (pun intended) that you managed to stick around for long enough to get your food, eat it and pay for it, then I don't really think that your service was so unacceptable for it to not go paid for.

I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions, but I think pretty much 99% of the reasons people have for "I'm not paying for this service" are pretty bunk things that would not apply to any other situation in the world where you're paying for a goods or service, but because the price is implied instead of built-in, it's treated differently.

[rong]

I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions, but I think pretty much 99% of the reasons people have for "I'm not paying for this service" are pretty bunk things that would not apply to any other situation in the world where you're paying for a goods or service, but because the price is implied instead of built-in, it's treated differently.

You pay for the service in the price of the meal. That's why places that offer eat in or takeaway charge more to eat in.

I tip near enough 100% of the time if I'm waited on. But I think its Shit that its assumed and it should be the case that a tip is earned. It's not like they work there for free. There's plenty of other min wage jobs out there and some that involve serving food that don't get tipped (ie reservoir dogs) so a waiter taking my tip for granted is poor form and shouldn't be rewarded, but as society deems it appropriate that we tip I do so often because I'd feel like a complete ass hole if I didn't.

[surviva316]

You pay for the service in the price of the meal. That's why places that offer eat in or takeaway charge more to eat in.

I'm talking about in American dining situations where servers are not paid mentionable hourly wages. First off: even if the service is built into the price, that money doesn't go to the servers, and you are still responsible for paying the service (fucked up system, but it's how it works).

Second off: that is not why eat-in places cost more. Rent is a huge part of restaurant overhead, and eat-in places both need to be bigger and need to be in more convenient areas where rent tends to be much higher. Atmosphere considerations are another big part of restaurant overhead. All of the contemporary art on the walls, the cleaning service for the carpet your walking on, etc cost money. I realize that this doesn't all that much apply to Waffle House and the like but that's the exception to the rule, and I'm not sure it cost more to dine-in there than it would to order out from there anyway. It also takes (at least) twice as much management to manage eat-in places than when your only job is to cook food and take money from the people who are eating your food. The $2/hr that servers make doesn't have much to do with it.

[spoonitnow]

I stopped by a Waffle House a week or two ago to grab some lunch while I was running errands. I ordered a chicken sandwich, hashbrowns and a drink for a total of about $8. The restaurant was not busy, and I was one of maybe four people in the place. Here are two extremes on what could happen:

Scenario A: If the waitress brought me more drink when she needed to, brought my ticket without me having to sit there with an empty plate for several minutes, offered me a to-go cup without me having to ask for one and acted polite, I'd easily tip her $5 or more.

Scenario B: If my drink sits empty for a couple of minutes while my waitress sits on her ass on the phone, she's probably getting a tip in the range of $0.03 so that she knows I did it on purpose.

Thoughts?

[bikes]

I stopped by a Waffle House a week or two ago to grab some lunch while I was running errands. I ordered a chicken sandwich, hashbrowns and a drink for a total of about $8. The restaurant was not busy, and I was one of maybe four people in the place. Here are two extremes on what could happen:

Scenario A: If the waitress brought me more drink when she needed to, brought my ticket without me having to sit there with an empty plate for several minutes, offered me a to-go cup without me having to ask for one and acted polite, I'd easily tip her $5 or more.

Scenario B: If my drink sits empty for a couple of minutes while my waitress sits on her ass on the phone, she's probably getting a tip in the range of $0.03 so that she knows I did it on purpose.

Thoughts?

legit. however i'd still end up tipping reasonably okay.

[surviva316]

I stopped by a Waffle House a week or two ago to grab some lunch while I was running errands. I ordered a chicken sandwich, hashbrowns and a drink for a total of about $8. The restaurant was not busy, and I was one of maybe four people in the place. Here are two extremes on what could happen:

Scenario A: If the waitress brought me more drink when she needed to, brought my ticket without me having to sit there with an empty plate for several minutes, offered me a to-go cup without me having to ask for one and acted polite, I'd easily tip her $5 or more.

Scenario B: If my drink sits empty for a couple of minutes while my waitress sits on her ass on the phone, she's probably getting a tip in the range of $0.03 so that she knows I did it on purpose.

Thoughts?

My thoughts, again, are that tip is a charge that is implicitly added to every bill, and if you don't feel that this establishment is worth their service charges, then don't go there to eat. I mean, Waffle House is pretty fucking infamous for having horrendous service, so if you weren't interested in getting $8-worth of food for $10 because the service there isn't worth the $2, then I would suggest going somewhere else to get your waffles.

I mean, hell, to extrapolate it even further, you could make waffles at home for the price of like $1 per waffle, but clearly the Waffle House dining experience appeals to you so you can sit on your ass and do nothing but point at a picture and you'll get it brought out to you (also, the cost of overhead and all that). I'm sure that cooks at Waffle House are also terrible at their job (helping to contribute to how slow the food comes out, btw), but if your eggs come out with runny yolks when you asked for over-hard and your waffles are a little chewy from being undercooked and all that, you can't really negotiate how much the cooks get paid. You can decide to not eat there anymore, you can decide to complain to a superior about the quality of their work, in extreme cases you can urge to not pay at all if it is completely unacceptable/inedible/etc, but directly docking their pay isn't an option you have.

We only get into these considerations of "well ANYone could of done what he/she did" or "they're not good at what they do" or "it all evens out in the end" when it's this strange implicitly built-in price that restaurants have.

[NightGizmo]

My thoughts, again, are that tip is a charge that is implicitly added to every bill, and if you don't feel that this establishment is worth their service charges, then don't go there to eat. I mean, Waffle House is pretty fucking infamous for having horrendous service, so if you weren't interested in getting $8-worth of food for $10 because the service there isn't worth the $2, then I would suggest going somewhere else to get your waffles.

I think spoon's "I waited 3 minutes for my drink at Waffle House so I don't tip you" example is a bit extreme, but I think that your argument doesn't work either, surviva.

If you're going to work in a service industry, you had better make some kind of effort to provide service to your customers. It's bullshit to expect that you can just sit on your ass and expect people to tip you because "it's part of the price" for going to the restaurant. Yes -- if you go to a restaurant, you should expect to pay a tip for decent service. But if you get crappy service? Regardless of whether the restaurant has a good reputation or a bad one, crappy service deserves a crappy tip.

Also -- nobody is forcing this person to choose a waiter job over some other job that pays minimum wage. Using the "but they are paid less without tips" argument isn't valid, because that difference is supposed to be earned by the quality of their service.

[surviva316]

If you're going to work in a service industry, you had better make some kind of effort to provide service to your customers. It's bullshit to expect that you can just sit on your ass and expect people to tip you because "it's part of the price" for going to the restaurant.

If you replace the word "people" with the word "employer" and the word "tip" with the word "pay," this is, quite literally, how it works for any other service job in the world. Not that I mean to argue that how we pay any employee in any line of work is even remotely optimal, (I'm not arguing that a cook who gives fuckall about his job and doesn't care how runny the yolks are should make more than competent, at least half-caring cooks), but I'm just pointing out that this thing you're calling bullshit is a pretty goddamned mundane thing.

Also, we'd have to give much more specific examples of "good," "bad" and "mediocre" service for this to become any kind of real discussion. We're talking in very general terms, which is why I didn't answer the poll. When I say that the tip is an implicitly built-in expense in all but extreme cases, I mean that I know a ton of people who grumble about tipping anymore than 15% when everything went perfectly fine except for one little gaffe (which sometimes aren't even gaffes and which very often aren't even remotely attributable to the waiter). It is also the only line of business where you might not be paid if you "rub people the wrong way" or any other kind of ridiculous criteria for fulfilling your job requirement.

If we're truly talking about situations where you received no service--like, you had to go to the cook and tell him what you'd like, and you had to run your own food and stuff--then obviously this is a different discussion. That's a little extreme, I know, but this is just kinda to put into perspective some people's NIGHTMARE stories about service that was unsatisfactory but still not at all the equivalent of not being served at all.

[spoonitnow]

I think it's worth pointing out that if I'm with friends, we'll often play games like betting on the age of the waitress. If the waitress plays along, she gets a better tip. If she's a bitch, she might get a worse tip.

[kiwiMark]

and if she's cute vs she's an uggo?

edit: fuck I hate the FTR smilie, it does not in the least convey what I want colonrightbracket to convey.

[spoonitnow]

and if she's cute vs she's an uggo?

edit: fuck I hate the FTR smilie, it does not in the least convey what I want colonrightbracket to convey.

I actually probably over-correct for the looks of the waitress. If she's attractive, then I'm probably more harsh on average unless it's someone I'm currently involved with. In those cases, I just leave a normal tip every single time so that there are no expectations set for me tipping them extra.

[boost]

ugh, this got too long for me to not grunch...

Renton, like someone else said, when tipping is in play there is this gross sort of slimey feeling to the whole transaction. Something that should typically be at least decent, human interaction, is turned into this fake performance. Like comparing sex to sex with a prostitute. This is mildly unpleasant for the non-narcissistic customer when it isn't well disguised by the server, but potentially detrimental to the long term psychological health of the server. I literally would turn away from a customer, shed the smile, and think "that was fucking gross" all in one instant. So there's that... then there's the stress of inconsistent wages-- which shouldn't be such a problem, but clearly people working these jobs aren't on average very good financial planners. And lastly, I'd like to point out that truly exceptional service rarely sees the server keeping 100% of their tips, or anywhere close to it for that matter. "Tipping out" to positions that generally don't receive direct tips, but assist the server (such as a bus boy, food runner, host, etc) is super standard. Then there are tip pools, which are much more common in fine dining, where phenomenal service is actually a goal and not just a potential bi-product of trying to make as much money as possible.

That's a bit of a rant, but if you'd like, we can get into how check(and therefore tip)-boosting tricks, like "up-selling" are far worse than not having your water glass filled to the brim constantly, or whatever else it is that you (in general) consider bad service.

[Renton]

ugh, this got too long for me to not grunch...

Renton, like someone else said, when tipping is in play there is this gross sort of slimey feeling to the whole transaction. Something that should typically be at least decent, human interaction, is turned into this fake performance. Like comparing sex to sex with a prostitute. This is mildly unpleasant for the non-narcissistic customer when it isn't well disguised by the server, but potentially detrimental to the long term psychological health of the server. I literally would turn away from a customer, shed the smile, and think "that was fucking gross" all in one instant.

What is to stop a server from just "being real" and doing a good job without acting like the guy from Chotchkies in Office Space?

So there's that... then there's the stress of inconsistent wages-- which shouldn't be such a problem, but clearly people working these jobs aren't on average very good financial planners.

With risk and inconsistency comes great reward. Serving can be one of the best paying non-skilled / non-educated jobs on the planet, depending on the restaurant of course.

And lastly, I'd like to point out that truly exceptional service rarely sees the server keeping 100% of their tips, or anywhere close to it for that matter. "Tipping out" to positions that generally don't receive direct tips, but assist the server (such as a bus boy, food runner, host, etc) is super standard. Then there are tip pools, which are much more common in fine dining, where phenomenal service is actually a goal and not just a potential bi-product of trying to make as much money as possible.

That's a bit of a rant, but if you'd like, we can get into how check(and therefore tip)-boosting tricks, like "up-selling"

It seems like flagrant "up-selling" is a gambit though. If it is off-putting to the customer, that should theoretically reflect in your tip.

are far worse than not having your water glass filled to the brim constantly, or whatever else it is that you (in general) consider bad service.

...........

[surviva316]

It seems like flagrant "up-selling" is a gambit though. If it is off-putting to the customer, that should theoretically reflect in your tip.

I didn't bother getting into how success in accruing tips has so little to do with alacrity to give free refills because I didn't think it's relevant to this particular topic and because I've gotten into it in other threads, but maybe I'll dig it up.

In the meantime, just trust me that these "in theory" postulations on how different things correlate to success in the service world hold very very little water. You see improvement in your wages by doing a whole slew of things that have nothing to do with satisfying guests.

[surviva316]

I have a story that is not meant to be agenda-based or anything:

So this one time me and my closest friends went to this really nice dinner (not something a bunch of 20-something grad students do often) for our christmas exchange of presents. Our server must have been in a bad mood or maybe he only had that job at such a well-respected restaurant because he was the manager's nephew or some shit, but he was so sour that we straight up felt so awkward we wanted to die every time he came over. And we're an easy-going bunch who would joke about a bunch of stuff with him and everything, but this guy was having none of our happy fun times.

He got a couple of things wrong and forgot a couple of things, but that's not really what we disliked about the whole thing. Like, at one point my friend ordered a glass of wine and then like 20 minutes later, he was like, "I don't wanna be a bother, but I was wondering about my wine?" And the dude was like all stone-faced, and said in a complete monotone, "No" . . . a long pause went by where his face stayed completely still like he was thinking something over, then he completely unapologetically said, "Sorry." Like, we literally watched this man have to will with all of his might to be able to admit that he screwed something up.

I don't know, I'm not explaining this well, but every salad he brought over, every drink, every everything, we were like, "Oh fuck, he's here again, omg I feel so awkward right now, please go away so we can be happy again and pretend like you don't exist." The table next to us also seemed to be having a rough time with the server, and I think that they were actually have more tangible problems, but I don't remember what they were, so you'll just have to take my half-remembered word for it.

Anyway, at the end of the night, we decided to go talk to the manager about how we loved the food, and we love the place, but this server you have on staff is a real buzzkill. We were expecting a real man-to-man, heart-to-heart over the whole situation, but when we went up, the manager was just like, "Mike was your server? Oh he's great!" Or some crap, I don't remember but it was really dismissive. Maybe he thought we were just a bunch of 20-year-old cheepos looking to get free breadsticks out of the deal or something, so he shoo'ed us away and pretty much didn't believe us that we weren't pleased with our server? Lol, I don't know. it left a bad taste in our mouth.

So, we did the only thing that a good group of self-respecting people could really do in the situation. My one friend always had a massive stack of 1-dollar-bills in his pocket, so we all paid him, and he in-turn paid for the bill in like 200 singles, which included a 20% tip for the server.

This, of course, isn't to say that this is how this situation should always be handled, and I'm not at all pretending that this is really relevant to this thread, but I'm just reminiscing on a fond memory of mine.

[rong]

Does America have a minimum wage? Do waitresses not by law earn this exclusive of tips meaning tips?

[spoonitnow]

Does America have a minimum wage? Do waitresses not by law earn this exclusive of tips meaning tips?

In some states, waitresses can be paid less than minimum wage. However, if they do not make at least minimum wage including their tips, then their employer has to compensate them so that they are getting at least minimum wage. In many states, they have to make minimum wage before tips.

[rong]

In some states, waitresses can be paid less than minimum wage. However, if they do not make at least minimum wage including their tips, then their employer has to compensate them so that they are getting at least minimum wage. In many states, they have to make minimum wage before tips.

So in effect, on a slow night you could sometimes be actually tipping the restaurant owner. Well that sucks.

[boost]

In many states "wage" is total earnings, or "payroll + tips", and it is legal (though I've never heard of anyone doing this) for the employer to collect all tips which are in excess of minimum wage from their employees.

An employer could have a restaurant that did not accept cash, and all transactions were credit/debit. This would mean that all tips are actually handled through the employer. (This is actually common in the 4-star and 5-star restaurant industry.) Since all of the money goes through the employer, the employer can decide exactly how much of your tips you get to have and how much they get to have.

I worked in a place like this where you earned "points" through seniority and training. So while I was working there, I was getting less than 1/2 the share of tips as someone who had been there for 10 years or so.

I'm fine with performance based pay. I'm just saying there are places that handle tips differently than Denny's.

Dude, what, no. If the employer is keeping any portion of the tip pool, they are breaking the law. This is true for all 50 states afaik, and when it's not, it's a huge exception to the rule.

Awarding points due to seniority is really ridiculous, and really defeats the purpose of a tip pool. A tip pool should encourage better service by encouraging team work, instead of an every-man-for-himself atmosphere. Whoever was running that restaurant sounds like a fucking moran.

So in effect, on a slow night you could sometimes be actually tipping the restaurant owner. Well that sucks.

And herein lies an interesting issue. The employer is essentially guilting the customer into subsidizing his staff. Why would customers not be happier simply paying more for a consistent well trained staff?

What is to stop a server from just "being real" and doing a good job without acting like the guy from Chotchkies in Office Space?

You're setting up a false dichotomy, but whatever... the fact is that customers don't know how to appreciate "being real." Some do, but most are looking for some level of Chotchkiness. They are so used to it, that they don't even realize that they are having these demeaning fake interactions with someone every time they go out to eat. And I'd argue that most servers don't even recognize that they are doing it. It is a product of the tipping system.

Then there's the issue of a service economy to begin with. It's such a weird web of nonsense, where a large swath of the participants are expected to be subservient at work, but then want to enjoy the subservience of others when they go out. It's an economy where everyone ends up feeling entitled to be treated like a fucking prince or princess everywhere they go. Then they get their panties all in a bunch when it's not exactly how they wished it would be. Newsflash, you're not royalty.

With risk and inconsistency comes great reward. Serving can be one of the best paying non-skilled / non-educated jobs on the planet, depending on the restaurant of course.

It is only a non-skilled non-educated job for shitty servers. It's possible to get these jobs with no skill and no education, because the employer's investment is so minimal.

It seems like flagrant "up-selling" is a gambit though. If it is off-putting to the customer, that should theoretically reflect in your tip.

That's why it's a tip-boosting as well as check-boosting trick. Obv you aren't going to get a two top to order five entrees... and why are we even discussing flagrant upselling? The tactic, flagrant or not, is disingenuous and deceitful. It is not good service, and it is a by-product of the tipping scheme. It belies the true nature of a tipped employee, who is not there for good service, but is there to try to fleece the customer.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Does America have a minimum wage? Do waitresses not by law earn this exclusive of tips meaning tips?

In many states "wage" is total earnings, or "payroll + tips", and it is legal (though I've never heard of anyone doing this) for the employer to collect all tips which are in excess of minimum wage from their employees.

An employer could have a restaurant that did not accept cash, and all transactions were credit/debit. This would mean that all tips are actually handled through the employer. (This is actually common in the 4-star and 5-star restaurant industry.) Since all of the money goes through the employer, the employer can decide exactly how much of your tips you get to have and how much they get to have.

I worked in a place like this where you earned "points" through seniority and training. So while I was working there, I was getting less than 1/2 the share of tips as someone who had been there for 10 years or so.

I'm fine with performance based pay. I'm just saying there are places that handle tips differently than Denny's.