The problem with Islam

[wufwugy]

@wuf: you've never been more wrong about my position.
I don't think you're a child. I think you trust your feelings over your empiricism.

I think you feel like you can somehow separate statements about someone's morality from statements about their moral character. I do not think too many people in the world would agree with this sentiment.

I think you're saying that Islamic morality is inferior to other moralities. I find this to be a personal attack against every educated Muslim in the world who is capable of critical thinking by accusing them of either being malicious or too stupid to embrace an objective perspective.

The implicit statement you're making is that our values (morality) are correct, and other moral systems are incorrect. My point is that all moral systems are the amalgamation of a history of poor compromises, and none is better than any others in comparison. They serve different purposes and will or will not hold up over time. Islamic culture has held up over time, and as such it represents a valid way for humans to organize a society. If it is different from other cultures, then so what? I don't even see why this is an issue.

All the minutia of what you're picking nits about are either cultural differences or gross misunderstandings.

You say that I haven't taken your points seriously, but I have. I think you're being closed-minded on this topic, and all of your points are circumstantial and stem from sensationalism. I have not read one single thought from you which felt like you were looking for solutions, just trying to point fingers and name problems. Which is fine if you understand the system you're trying to fix, but I do not get any sense of real understanding from you. I don't get any sense that you understand that different cultures my be dramatically opposed in value systems, but still be perfectly viable (you love that word, right) systems.

If you are embracing a position of curiosity and understanding, then I fully support you. If you're spouting off an agenda which treats humans as un-thinking and un-caring individuals, then I call BS on your world-view.

This is not a comic strip and we're not super heroes. I don't see any benefit to glorifying this conversation as an epic battle of wits. I really don't care that much about this topic. I have no interest in trying to save the world or solve its problems, unless they're physics-based.

This thread is a response to the framing of mainstream Islam as "moderate". The use of this terminology precludes the notion that people are unconcerned with its value system; instead the framing is stating that its value system is compatible with the mainstream West. My issue is that "moderate" is being misused and that which is called a compatible Islamic value system with the western value system is in fact not compatible.

You're on a different note than us (than most every member of society in the conversation). You're positing a sort of cultural determinism of morals that stretches beyond the views of most. When mainstream Islam teaches such behavior that women clothe themselves in such a way to ward off violence, do you think this is totally cool because culture?

[MadMojoMonkey]

This thread is a response to the framing of mainstream Islam as "moderate". The use of this terminology precludes the notion that people are unconcerned with its value system; instead the framing is stating that its value system is compatible with the mainstream West. My issue is that "moderate" is being misused and that which is called a compatible Islamic value system with the western value system is in fact not compatible.

Fine. My issue is that you're pulling your notion of "mainstream" from spurious sources.

My contention is that you may know the first thing about mainstream Muslim culture, but you don't know the million other things.

You're on a different note than us (than most every member of society in the conversation). You're positing a sort of cultural determinism of morals that stretches beyond the views of most.

A) I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.
B) What's your point?

Most people are short-sighted and quick to temper. That doesn't make it an ideal.

When mainstream Islam teaches such behavior that women clothe themselves in such a way to ward off violence, do you think this is totally cool because culture?

Yes.

If you understand the depth of their scripture or the responsibility placed on men which is (theoretically) an equal burden for their faith as the women's burden, then we can keep talking.

For you to say, "Look, they don't let their women wear whatever they want!" as though it's somehow either true or bad is just weird to me. You are not allowed to wear dresses and face makeup. If you do so in public, you will likely be ridiculed and possibly assaulted by homophobic idiot assholes who do not represent the wider views of your culture. Is this an argument for how oppressive the Western culture is towards men?

[wufwugy]

Fine. My issue is that you're pulling your notion of "mainstream" from spurious sources.

Leading pollsters are spurious sources? The claim that mainstream Islam does not include the types of social views I've alluded to is held only by a rather small minority. If you're okay with arguing that this tiny minority is the correct one, I'm totally fine with that since I have no position on the matter since my posts have been a response to the fact that the vast majority do not share your view.

A) I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.
B) What's your point?

Your statements have been confusing since you've been talking about something much different than the rest of us have ITT. I have not posted about things where the view of cultural determinism of morality is relevant.

Yes.

Where do you draw the line?

If you understand the depth of their scripture

That actually doesn't matter. It matters what is taught. There are all sorts of awful things that can be found in the Bible that are not taught by Christians, for example.

or the responsibility placed on men which is (theoretically) an equal burden for their faith as the women's burden, then we can keep talking.

How so?

For you to say, "Look, they don't let their women wear whatever they want!" as though it's somehow either true or bad is just weird to me. You are not allowed to wear dresses and face makeup. If you do so in public, you will likely be ridiculed and possibly assaulted by homophobic idiot assholes who do not represent the wider views of your culture. Is this an argument for how oppressive the Western culture is towards men?

Of course it doesn't represent the wider views of western culture towards men. That view is extremely sparsely held. However, it is a mistake to conflate this fringe belief in western culture with how the belief operates in the Islamic world. It is extremely not fringe there. The analogy you chose would be appropriate if the example was me wearing t-shirt with a picture of a particular person on it then me being heftily punished for it and that representing the mainstream view of my culture. Or if a woman in heels were to be punished and that representing the mainstream view of her culture.