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Anti-Capitalist Sentiment (with some morality)

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  1. #1
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Inequality is a non-removable facet of life. Government makes it worse and capitalism makes it better.
    You keep saying this but you haven't explained how capitalism reduces inequality (or if you did I missed it, sorry).



    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I have not suggested cruelty or psychopathy. The world is Darwin. It is best that we understand this and use the knowledge to construct the best society we can. Not doing so would be attempts at breaking the natural world in ways that doesn't get broken.

    An example is how, because of the Darwin nature of people, when the government subsidizes unproductive behavior, it promotes the survival of unproductive behavior. This can be thought of as the environment selecting for behavior that harms. Applying Darwinian ideas to society has nothing to do with the barbaric notion that many think, but with promoting good and discouraging bad.
    I'm not talking about interfering with the private sector in ways that are harmful. Of course that happens and of course that's stupid.

    I'm talking about how you get that poor sick baby some medicine in a purely capitalist system. There's no recourse for that child's family, they're just screwed.



    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You said this was capitalism. It's not. Capitalism is very new in history. Where free market capitalism has thrived, we've seen vast thriving of the poor.
    According to the dictionary, capitalism is "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state." So I don't understand how there wasn't a free market economy before governments existed. What was it then?


    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Where we have seen the class divides you're discussing is where we haven't found capitalism and instead of found powerful governments.
    Can you give some examples of places and times where this has been shown to be the case?
  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    You keep saying this but you haven't explained how capitalism reduces inequality (or if you did I missed it, sorry).
    It may not seem like I've said much on this since what we're dealing with mostly is derivation from economic principles.

    To answer simply how capitalism reduces inequality: it allows for people to best apply the value of their capital (skills and equipment) and their labor. Markets are where people with varying attributes go to find buyers, and to find sellers of other attributes, all for the purpose of creating more beneficial resources for the involved parties. The free market allows for this to happen to its fullest extent. It provides for those with the lowest quality and quantity of attributes to find the optimal price to sell their goods/services for.

    When a government intervenes into this engine, it inflates costs because it does not intervene efficiently. This cost inflation harms those with the lowest quality and quantity of attributes first, which diverges equality. As more intervention comes, costs inflate further. Today's market is intervened so heavily in by government that there are many huge industries where the poor and middle class have valuable skills that others want to purchase but they can't because the costs are too high and those with the skill and desire to produce don't even engage the market. What this leaves behind is a situation where only the wealthy can engage in the market because they're the only ones that can afford the high costs. This creates another vicious cycle of government and the rich rubbing each others' backs, further pushing out competition. We've seen this happen all over the place, from medical associations that want only their special group of doctors to be allowed to perform functions that nurses can do just as safely for much cheaper, to unions that lobby to raise the minimum wage so that there is less competition for contracts from cheaper alternatives than the union.

    I'm talking about how you get that poor sick baby some medicine in a purely capitalist system. There's no recourse for that child's family, they're just screwed.
    If we think of our healthcare systems, the true cost of care is very very very very low compared to what the prices are. The best way to make medicine available for sick babies is to let the system that thrives on abundance and pleasing the customer (capitalism) do what it does. The best way to keep babies from getting the medicine they need looks similar to what governments are doing with healthcare: all sorts of interventions that greatly deter supply.

    This raises the question: "what can governments do proactively to raise supply?" Well, I have a hard time finding things since most of what they can do, and what is popular among voters, is that which decreases supply. For example, people don't like when a brand new drug is very expensive so they want government to set a price control. On the surface it sounds like there is nothing wrong with this, but it reduces the supply in the drug market and hurts everybody.

    According to the dictionary, capitalism is "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state." So I don't understand how there wasn't a free market economy before governments existed. What was it then?
    The sensibility of production for sale on a market wasn't really even a thing until it was invented somewhere around the Dutch area and sometime in the 17th century or something. Most of history before then was about people farming for sustenance and paying the remaining in tax to the state or warlords, while a handful of others did specific tasks for the aristocracy (like blacksmithing or stable tending). These societies had huge class divides and very little in the way of markets.

    Northern Europe created the idea of private enterprise, Britain embraced it more, a Scottish philosopher (Adam Smith) explained the theory behind it, and America took the idea and ran with it. The American government was the very first time that a government had constitutionally limited power, and the American land was the first time that the sensibility of private enterprise was allowed to flourish without great obstacles. This is the difference that created the world we live in today. Many say "it was technology" or "it was oil". Neither provides the story. Without economics to apply markets to the supply, demand, and distribution of goods and services, oil would still be in the ground and the light bulb would be something people who have access to books know about.

    Can you give some examples of places and times where this has been shown to be the case?
    I mentioned some above. It's more than giving examples but explaining why they're examples. Like Friedman said, every prosperous country is an example of this. There are no known examples of countries that have risen from third world poverty to have a middle class that didn't do so by embracing free market reforms and limiting government intervention.

    This stuff involves a deconstruction of so much that we take for granted. For example, the term "middle class" is itself a symbol of the example you're looking for right beneath our noses. There was no middle class in the entirety of history except for when it grew out of capitalism in America and Europe. China and several other countries are undergoing the same creation of a middle class that we did in real time, and economists are watching it in real time. The emergent China middle class is coming as China's government is deregulating its markets and allowing entrepreneurs and consumers and workers do as they like.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 10-02-2016 at 03:55 PM.
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    It may not seem like I've said much on this since what we're dealing with mostly is derivation from economic principles.

    To answer simply how capitalism reduces inequality: it allows for people to best apply the value of their capital (skills and equipment) and their labor. Markets are where people with varying attributes go to find buyers, and to find sellers of other attributes, all for the purpose of creating more beneficial resources for the involved parties. The free market allows for this to happen to its fullest extent. It provides for those with the lowest quality and quantity of attributes to find the optimal price to sell their goods/services for.

    When a government intervenes into this engine, it inflates costs because it does not intervene efficiently. This cost inflation harms those with the lowest quality and quantity of attributes first, which diverges equality. As more intervention comes, costs inflate further. Today's market is intervened so heavily in by government that there are many huge industries where the poor and middle class have valuable skills that others want to purchase but they can't because the costs are too high. What this leaves behind is a situation where only the wealthy can engage in the market because they're the only ones that can afford the high costs and those with the skill and desire to produce don't even engage the market. This creates another vicious cycle of government and the rich rubbing each others' backs, further pushing out competition. We've seen this happen all over the place, from medical associations that want only their special group of doctors to be allowed to perform functions that nurses can do just as safely for much cheaper, to unions that lobby to raise the minimum wage so that there is less competition for contracts from cheaper alternatives than the union.



    If we think of our healthcare systems, the true cost of care is very very very very low compared to what the prices are. The best way to make medicine available for sick babies is to let the system that thrives on abundance and pleasing the customer (capitalism) do what it does. The best way to keep babies from getting the medicine they need looks similar to what governments are doing with healthcare: all sorts of interventions that greatly deter supply.

    This raises the question: "what can governments do proactively to raise supply?" Well, I have a hard time finding things since most of what they can do, and what is popular among voters, is that which decreases supply. For example, people don't like when a brand new drug is very expensive so they want government to set a price control. On the surface it sounds like there is nothing wrong with this, but it reduces the supply in the drug market and hurts everybody.



    The sensibility of production for sale on a market wasn't really even a thing until it was invented somewhere around the Dutch area and sometime in the 17th century or something. Most of history before then was about people farming for sustenance and paying the remaining in tax to the state or warlords, while a handful of others did specific tasks for the aristocracy (like blacksmithing or stable tending). These societies had huge class divides and very little in the way of markets.

    Northern Europe created the idea of private enterprise, Britain embraced it more, a Scottish philosopher (Adam Smith) explained the theory behind it, and America took the idea and ran with it. The American government was the very first time that a government had constitutionally limited power, and the American land was the first time that the sensibility of private enterprise was allowed to flourish without great obstacles. This is the difference that created the world we live in today. Many say "it was technology" or "it was oil". Neither provides the story. Without economics to apply markets to the supply, demand, and distribution of goods and services, oil would still be in the ground and the light bulb would be something people who have access to books know about.



    I mentioned some above. It's more than giving examples but explaining why they're examples. Like Friedman said, every prosperous country is an example of this. There are no known examples of countries that have risen from third world poverty to have a middle class that didn't do so by embracing free market reforms and limiting government intervention.

    This stuff involves a deconstruction of so much that we take for granted. For example, the term "middle class" is itself a symbol of the example you're looking for right beneath our noses. There was no middle class in the entirety of history except for when it grew out of capitalism in America and Europe. China and several other countries are undergoing the same creation of a middle class that we did in real time, and economists are watching it in real time. The emergent China middle class is coming as China's government is deregulating its markets and allowing entrepreneurs and consumers and workers do as they like.

    I have to admit I don't really have the tools to critique your essay as I'm not a trained economist. My point of view is probably better articulated by others, such as here:

    https://ethicalrealism.wordpress.com...st-capitalism/


    That aside, I think that in general you are taking a point of view that is extreme and overly simplistic. Academics (including Friedman) tend to take extreme positions, that's what makes them and their theories interesting and being interesting gets rewarded in academia. That doesn't mean such theories are true or even that the person postulating them even believes they're true. They're only theories after all. Friedman himself even argues in favor of certain government interventions which are decidedly not capitalist.


    From here:
    https://unlearningeconomics.wordpres...s-distortions/

    "In Capitalism and Freedom, he advocated building infrastructure, a negative income tax, school vouchers, praised antitrust laws and more."
  4. #4
    There's no sense in going point by point, but I'll just mention that the author gets a good deal of stuff wrong.

    Friedman himself even argues in favor of certain government interventions which are decidedly not capitalist.
    Not everybody's perfect.


    There is a great divide between what some economists say and what the economics itself says. I do my best to speak from the economics itself and ignore the politically biased statements made by some economists.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Not everybody's perfect.

    There is a great divide between what some economists say and what the economics itself says.
    This sounds like you're saying most economists are way way off.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I do my best to speak from the economics itself and ignore the politically biased statements made by some economists.
    Oh. I thought you were basing your ideas on Friedman's, I didn't realise you'd progressed beyond him into your own realm of understanding. Well done!
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    This sounds like you're saying most economists are way way off.
    Economists themselves argue about this stuff. The spectrum of economists ranges from those who are free market advocates in virtually every way (like Bob Murphy), to free market advocates in almost all (but not all) ways (like Scott Sumner), to free market advocates in most ways but not when it comes to their political emotions (like Paul Krugman).

    Oh. I thought you were basing your ideas on Friedman's, I didn't realise you'd progressed beyond him into your own realm of understanding. Well done!
    I am deeply influenced by him. My influences are mainly Friedman, Sumner, Caplan, and the stuff I read in economics textbooks. A lot of economists think there is a problem among many economists in forgetting what the textbooks teach. I think it is not only that but that most economists too readily set aside what I think is the most important skill economists have: deducing from economic principle. Perhaps an example of this is how much we've heard economists discuss the minimum wage like it's anything other than creationism or flat earth-ism. The econometric approach to minimum wage makes it look like there is something worth looking at, but this is because the econometric approach provides very little evidence from which conclusions can be made. This instills poor habits in economists and misleads the public. What economists should instead do on the minimum wage (most of them do this fwiw, just not all) is point out that the law of demand and not-exactly-a-law of supply are theory as rock solid as theories get, and it is in a very simple deduction from them that an increase in the minimum wage is expected to decrease the demand for labor and/or increase the price of goods/services. Econometricians have a hard time showing this happen but that's because econometrics doesn't have the tools to show it happen in the first place.
  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    What economists should instead do on the minimum wage (most of them do this fwiw, just not all) is point out that the law of demand and not-exactly-a-law of supply are theory as rock solid as theories get, and it is in a very simple deduction from them that an increase in the minimum wage is expected to decrease the demand for labor and/or increase the price of goods/services. Econometricians have a hard time showing this happen but that's because econometrics doesn't have the tools to show it happen in the first place.
    It's exactly stuff like this which makes me skeptical about economics.

    You say that supply and demand is as rock solid as economic theory gets, but then you say that it can't be shown to even happen in the first place on the example of minimum wage. Minimum wage is not a new issue, has changed many times in the past, and the idea that economists can't show that this plan is antithetical to positive economic growth tells me that they don't have anything from reality to affirm their position.

    It sounds like a frat house echo chamber of people who have said things which "seem right" to each other enough that everyone now thinks it's a sign of mental deficiency to not say the thing is right. However, any truly rigorous analysis shows that this level of certainty is unjustified in the light of human complexity.

    So the dissonance I find is that on the one hand, you put forth your economic ideas as though they are undisputed laws, when the reality is that that they are guesses at guidelines.

    Which is fine, I guess, but I can't take you seriously when you tell people who disagree with you that they are wrong. If you can't demonstrate to another economist who wants to agree with you that the thing you mention is real, then how can you hope to convince people who think your ideas "seem" wrong?

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