**** Elections thread *****

[BananaStand]

Source, please?

Is it not common knowledge that there are some 12 million illegal immigrants in this country? Are they not working in jobs that do not pay taxes? Are they not sending their kids to american schools? Are they not seeking free, cheap, or subsidized healthcare....or other entitlements?

What value does your average syrian refugee bring to the table? Half of them are women, so you know they are totally uneducated and probably can't even drive. How about a command of the english language?

C'mon man, you can't tell me that the majority of people who come to America are coming to contribute when it's sooooo easy for them to exploit.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Is it not common knowledge that there are some 12 million illegal immigrants in this country?

I doubt the number is common knowledge, but it's common knowledge that there are illegal immigrants, sure.
Let's not nitpick the number.

Are they not working in jobs that do not pay taxes? Are they not sending their kids to american schools? Are they not seeking free, cheap, or subsidized healthcare....or other entitlements?

Excellent questions. I don't know the answers.

I suspect that even in your worst case scenario, I'd be OK with the numbers. I think that by the letter of the law, they're breaking the law, but by the spirit of the law, they are honorable, hard working people who want educated kids with skills that provide them opportunities. Sounds like the makings of a healthy, American family. Let's not pick nits about inconsequential history. They're here, they're not breaking laws, they're working jobs and sending their kids to school. IF they're not paying income tax, they're still paying sales tax and cannot claim any gov't benefits, so probably a net gain on taxes.

Seeking entitlements is the most American thing I can think of.

What value does your average syrian refugee bring to the table?

Dunno. Lets appropriately vet some and let them in and see.

Half of them are women, so you know they are totally uneducated and probably can't even drive. How about a command of the english language?

You're joking, right? Like, since they aren't educated, what? They are uneducatable? Since they can't drive, they can't learn to drive?

Plenty of Americans don't speak English. This is irrelevant.

C'mon man, you can't tell me that the majority of people who come to America are coming to contribute when it's sooooo easy for them to exploit.

C'mon man, you can't tell me the majority of Americans are any different.

[BananaStand]

I suspect that even in your worst case scenario, I'd be OK with the numbers. I think that by the letter of the law, they're breaking the law, but by the spirit of the law, they are honorable, hard working people who want educated kids with skills that provide them opportunities. Sounds like the makings of a healthy, American family. Let's not pick nits about inconsequential history. They're here, they're not breaking laws, they're working jobs and sending their kids to school. IF they're not paying income tax, they're still paying sales tax and cannot claim any gov't benefits, so probably a net gain on taxes.

Alright, let's not get off the rails here. I'm not beating the "they're breaking the law" drum too hard. My original point, is that among these *ahem* 'hard working people', there are more lawnmowers than brain surgeons. I'm just asking, is that something America really needs? Would we really be 'deprived' without that? And when you move away from the extreme poles of examples, I think America has generation of eager accountants, lawyers, electricians, and whatever else ready to fill any open position.

I'm just not buying that "immigrants are part of the fabric of america" nonsense.

Seeking entitlements is the most American thing I can think of.

Unfortunately, that's a common perception. though if I could sum up the 2016 election I'd say "the people paying the bills in this country want a fucking discount". I think your'e going to see more money flow to the middle class over the next 4 to 8 years. That means there's less for poor people. They're gonna have to get jobs too.

Dunno. Lets appropriately vet some and let them in and see.

Well, if we're talking about refugees, we're talking about someone who wouldn't otherwise come to America. If they had the means, motivation, and something to offer, they would come as immigrants. Refugees are only on the move because they are forced. If they had skills that we really needed here....we'd have gone over there and got them.

You're joking, right? Like, since they aren't educated, what? They are uneducatable? Since they can't drive, they can't learn to drive?

Who pays to educate them?

Plenty of Americans don't speak English. This is irrelevant.

Are those people paying the bills in this country, or collecting a check?

C'mon man, you can't tell me the majority of Americans are any different.

Just because you piss on your own toilet seat doesn't mean you'd like it if I came over and did the same.

[MadMojoMonkey]

My original point, is that among these *ahem* 'hard working people', there are more lawnmowers than brain surgeons. I'm just asking, is that something America really needs? Would we really be 'deprived' without that? And when you move away from the extreme poles of examples, I think America has generation of eager accountants, lawyers, electricians, and whatever else ready to fill any open position.

Different people have different skills. There's always more unskilled labor than skilled labor.
The evidence that one person is employing another person is enough for me to gather that it is something that they value and/or need. America needs honest people who freely exchange their services for dollars.
These are honest people doing business and it doesn't seem fair to stop them.

I'm guessing not all those eager workers want to mow their own lawns, or clean the work toilets, etc.

I'm not arguing for open borders, just giving refugees the benefit of the doubt. Some of them will be capable electricians, doctors, or teachers. Communities of people have variety.

There's a thriving Bosnian community in St Louis, from the genocide that was Milosovich (sp?) was driving about a decade ago. It's not like America doesn't know how to take in refugees. They showed up to work on time, worked hard, and struggled to learn the language and prove that they weren't here to be slackers. They wanted their pride back.
Are some of them slackers? Sure. Some of my family are slackers. Yours? Slackers happen. They're not the majority for communities, though.

I'm just not buying that "immigrants are part of the fabric of america" nonsense.

What?

[American History]

What?

Unfortunately, that's a common perception. though if I could sum up the 2016 election I'd say "the people paying the bills in this country want a fucking discount". I think your'e going to see more money flow to the middle class over the next 4 to 8 years. That means there's less for poor people. They're gonna have to get jobs too.

Unemployment is almost never due to people who can work choosing to not work. The statistics say it all. There is a tiny percentage of people who are habitually on and off of unemployment benefits, but on the whole it's a one and done thing. I did it myself, and you know what? It slapped me in the face to get a degree in physics.

Feeling entitled to pursue your career and raise your family is an American thing.
... with Liberty and Justice for all.

Well, if we're talking about refugees, we're talking about someone who wouldn't otherwise come to America. If they had the means, motivation, and something to offer, they would come as immigrants. Refugees are only on the move because they are forced. If they had skills that we really needed here....we'd have gone over there and got them.

Dude. No.

They are entire communities which have been driven from everything familiar to them by atrocities you and I have the luxury of only having seen on TV.

Who pays to educate them?

This is fair a fair question. I believe it's negotiated between the feds and the state/city which accepts the influx.
But IDK.

Yes, it's tax dollars, but it's a good investment. You bring in tax payers.

Are those people paying the bills in this country, or collecting a check?

Both, I'm sure.
I'm also sure that the vast majority are not here illegally, and are paying their taxes and bills as the American citizens they are.

Just because you piss on your own toilet seat doesn't mean you'd like it if I came over and did the same.

eww.

People have pride. That's an everyone thing. People, on the whole, take pride in not being slacking losers.

[BananaStand]

What?

[American History]

What?

I dont' know how to explain myself any clearer. Though, I think maybe you do get what I'm saying, you're just horrified. That's possible, I realize my opinion on this is not popular.

"we're all descended from immigrants" - so what??? For most of our families, that was a long time ago, when the US population was a mere 20% of what it is now. And for most, that was a time when you could still get a full time job and make enough to at least meagerly support a family, without a high school diploma. Doctors made housecalls, and technology at the time only afforded them the most rudimentary of treatment methods. Jobs were plentiful as American investment and innovation fueled the industrial revolution. And many of those jobs didnt' require much skills, manual labor was far more commonplace than it is now.

Nowadays, you NEED to at least finish high school if you want to do anything. And you're way behind if you don't have a college degree. Doctors can do a lot more for you than they used to, and that comes with tremendous overhead. America isn't the global industrial juggernaut it once was. Jobs are more scarce, and they demand skills.

So I see a huge difference between Giovanni disembarking on Ellis Island back then, and Jose paddling a raft to Miami today. It was a thousand times easier for Giovanni join society and contribute. He also doesn't need much help. Jose can't do anything without an education, a drivers license, someone to keep him healthy, and college grants for his kids.

The idea that we should be opening our borders and offering today's immigrants the same opportunities as our great-grandfathers just doesn't register with me. It's not racist, jingoist, or xenophobic to demand that they bring more to the table now.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I dont' know how to explain myself any clearer. Though, I think maybe you do get what I'm saying, you're just horrified.

None of this is true, as far as I understand things. Certainly not the opening sentence which precedes an excellent explanation.
I would not claim to a lack of understanding which I do not feel. I don't imagine there is anything that could possible exist on FTR which would horrify me, certainly not an opinion.

I don't see how any of that conflicts with the past, but I do see that you feel that we're ready, as a nation, for a new path.

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt when you suspected I was trolling. I rarely troll, and I can't think of a time I trolled without making it perfectly clear in the same post as the troll what I was doing.